RIP REAL workingdogs- bloodlines with charactar ? - Page 1

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BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 06 March 2019 - 09:03

 


The trend in K9 world is more and more positive training with food and clicker ,all this postive training
if I follow all the training around the world will this the end of the dominant charactar working dogs who need also
some other training than cookies and clicker


This weekend I saw 2  owners somewhere who put their dogs down because they can,t handle
them no more of course they blame it on the dogs but doing some research the dogs were to strong and dominant for the owners and been in conflict with training methods from the handler.

Today trainers went dogs with high drive but also easy to please not that hard and difficult charactar dogs .


I know on this forum are trainers and handlers who have also the more more characar in their kennels

Charactar,hardness,courage in workingdogs will be hard to find in the future beacause the training levels will be more and more softer , dogs have  not enough challenge.
 

 

Western Rider (admin)

by Western Rider on 06 March 2019 - 09:03

Black, this is so true 

bladeedge

by bladeedge on 06 March 2019 - 11:03

BM on the money 👌 unfortunately .

by Koach on 06 March 2019 - 11:03

I remember the day, when on occasion, you had to take the dog out behind the barn and settle the "who was the boss" question. Once that was settled and the dog accepted leadership you ended up with on hell of a great companion.

GG

by apple on 06 March 2019 - 12:03

A dog can be a very good working dog without being highly dominant or highly handler hard. Just because a dog isn't highly dominant of highly handler hard doesn't mean the dog is submissive or handler soft, or not hard to the decoy. Many LE and military K9 people do not want highly dominant or handler aggressive dogs because they are a pain to train and potentially dangerous. A dog can have a ton of courage without being super dominant or handler hard. And there is nothing wrong with a dog having very good food drive and using food for foundation training. I have to wonder what type of foundation training was put on the dogs you said were put down. I do think such dogs can keep a bloodline strong if a breeder knows how to use them in their breeding program, but it sounds more like a macho thing than that they are truly better dogs. The right amount of dominance can bring power and the right amount of hardness is also good, but extremeness in those areas are better for keeping a line from diluting rather than being the best working dogs.
BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 06 March 2019 - 13:03

 


Apple I don,t talk about extreme dogs

Fact is the breed and training methods  is changed ...some dogs need an other mind set in training


In some situations you need a specific typ of dog not only that positive cookie/ball clicker dogs
here in Holland LE use them , but this are dogs from an other level and if I take a look in the future this typ of dogs become very rare




A good example in Holland is the van Leeuwen X Dutch Shepherd kennel any idea how they train dogs,,,,this are powerfull dominant dogs not for clicker /cookie junkie handlers onlyWink Smile not breed for points in sport

 

 

 

DuganVomEichenluft

by DuganVomEichenluft on 06 March 2019 - 13:03

GG, Your post brought back memories of my Police dog handler days. It actually made me chuckle. :-)

Apple, I completely agree with you. My Police dog was very civil and hard when working. Yet he was not at all dominant or handler aggressive. He was the ideal Police dog. 

I've seen handler hard/ dominant working dogs. Sometimes they can be excellent working dogs, sometimes not. The dog's success lays in the hands of it's handler and trainer.

I don't believe clicker and treat training weakens the dog. But that's my opinion.

 

Brandi

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 06 March 2019 - 13:03


Real hardness,courage,character can someone give me examples where this poperties get proper  tested and wich breeders , if nobody gives about this how can they breed this typ of dogs in the future????

 

And for sure I,m not a believer in all that positive (clicker) training  methods

its the end of the real working dogs  IMO


by Centurian on 06 March 2019 - 13:03

Hi Apple ...

How have you been ? I hope you hve been ok ...

Ahhhhh.... I was wondering when another lame brain thread would appear ....

As ususual your post pertaining to the 'real working dogs thread' is spot on.

These threads often just show me how much , or more appropriately , how little people really understand about teaching [ not training that is but , teaching ] a dog and interacting with a dog . The utilization of clicker training , as you do know , has nothing to do with rank status of a you and your dog. I know that you** do undestand , a clicker is no different than our mouth : Conceptually learning takes place with or without a clicker all the same . Also rank status is not just limitted to one incident but cumulatively . This status is predicated by how we always and overall , interact with the dog.
For example , we can ask a dog to sit. If the dog does not sit, I do not have to , in a manner of speaking , hammer that dog for it to understand that I am the boss no mater how hard or aggressive the dog is. I can get rank easily . Simple , if the dog does not copperate with me , I do not cooperate with the dog : that is to say the dog realizes real fast what it needs to do for that dinner bowl to get to the floor in order to eat.
Interesting .... many, many, many people still to this day think that in order to control a dog you have to be physically a brute. The dog does not follow the one that it fears but rather the one that the dog respects and the one that can rely on . Even nhard dogs.. if taught correctly , learn fast where their best interest lies... and that should be following you .
Many dog people still , just do not understand : you can get anything from a dog by simply , SIMPLY , providing** , not giving . providing , to that dog what it needs * . Also , setting rules and boundaries has nothing to do with a dog being soft or hard ... Besides for me , the more driven a dog .. the easier it is for me to teachthat dog !!! For example , the more a dog wants to pull ... the more it pulls .. what do I do ? Nothing ... Just nothing. Everyhting comes to a stand stil . Noting happens for the dog. If I choose , I can even keep myself out of the dilemma . The dog simply relaizesthat the more it pulls the further away he is from his goal - This is , in my eyes, opportunity for me to be a leader and teach the dog : " no pullingallows me to bring him to his goal ' . My point : one does not have to physical to teach a dog . Not evrything has to be out into a batle of the wills or an 'Alpha' way of thinking. Learning / teaching involves the same principles whether you are soft or harshand whether the dog is soft or harsh . Because conceptually , the underlying teaching and learning theory is exactly the same for both . One uses a form of either positive or negative reinforcement formally [ such as with a clicker ] or informally in teaching . Yes ?

One last comment : there is a difference between "Dominating*" a dog and having "Dominion Over* " a dog. They sound the same but are entirely different phenomena. For example , when I wanted to train my dogs as Police or Sport dogs.. I never ever ever dominated the dog. Not physically and neither verbally ... because if one does , that will translate into the dog's thinking [ and thinking governs behavior] that it can be deafeated in the protection work . Rather I ALWAYS have Dominion Over the dog , such that It knows that : it is in it's best interest to take and follow my cues and rules . The dog becomes subjugated to me and chooses not to exert it's will over mine. The dog is won over to me by TRUE trust , respect , loyalty , etc etc.
When I see how people write about their dogs and exoerinece or when I actually see a person with a dog , I can immediately know a lot about that person . When I want to know about a person , I simply take one glance at their dog - that dog tells me a lot . And so it is with many of the posts.

Amazing how many people are stuck on the idea of : only hard dogs being the only good working dogs....and that to be a good working dog it has to be hard. That is just fallicy !! Amazing how they think that in order to Often I can control a dog just with my eyes and sometimes I cam effect their behavior.. by simply blowing air into their face.. again ... jst saying...

Be well and take care , Centurian
BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 06 March 2019 - 13:03

 

Centaurian my post is not about what is a good dog my post is about properties  what get lost in breed and it is.!!!

 

 And we can discuss what is good dog or perfect working dog  most of time I have an other view than some experts here but thats ok for me

 



 

 

 


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