the horse whisperer -- - Page 1

yesterday i viewed something interseting. : the horse whisperer  is doing a ?documentary .. in the interview .. he made a comment : he learned that rehabilitating horses was as much about the relationship with the owner and 'how they live  their  life with the horse" ..
           this i have been stating on this forum about our GSDs. everybody looks for a 'way' , a 'technique.' how do you that or this .. even the Sch / sports people .. as i wrote Sch is a way of life with your dog.  Sch is everything you do day to day .. not just an exercise on the field.
        So , i would like  forum members help out people new to the GSD world  , new to sports & share their life's experiences in training their dogs and discuss how that bettered their relationships , their sports and their lives. . how does teaching in sport exercise  add improve you and your life. how does everyday life with your dog translate into your sport ? how do you conduct your dog's life to get great Sch execution ?

    Alphapup...

        I have been discussing this very thing with my riding instructor...I am currently working through a video series by Pat Parelli.....The object is building and creating a relationship with your horse from the ground first.and incorporating it in every aspect of your life with them...This way, when you are on their back in competition or just a trail ride it opens up important communication lines...: )

      Good topic,...: )

Ruger.. with the slow response to this topic .. i am perplexed ! i am led to beleive .. people think having horses or dogs are about  achieving , a means to an end.. whether that be points or placements.. i think i have seen through the decades of training the value and prime factor  to having a horse or a dog has gone by the way side.. case in point.. the way you lived with your dog , herding , guarding , hunting , even horses , plowing , drafting , hunting etc.. seems just by the way side . years ago if your horse or dog  and other animals didn't perform as they lived in your life and as you shared your life with them .. there was no survival of mankind .. there was a oneness if you would say .. funny how someone for example wants the 'perfect recall' in a dog but the meaning and essence of what that means  seems to be lost . for example , my mentor in Sch shared with me if you want a fast recall , then hold a ball as your dog runs toward you than as the dog approaches throw the ball behind you .. HMMM . that is what i see today ..trasining a means to an end.. BUT .. the big BUT ; what about having your dog race to you ..simply ... just because of you .. for the love of [wo]man / dog !! ??
               that is to say .. when i taught  classes . the recall was not a technique  !! broken things are recalled i would instruct. , like auto's. THE LOST CONCEPT : your dog should want to come to you from it's heart so bad ... that you are in essence giving the dog permission to come to you , to enter your body space!!.. so big deal any  techniques .. so what is it's value ...  if you cannot recpitulate that same endeavor in your life ??  e.g -dog goes to the street .. car comes .. maybe a dog wanting to come to you when it sees you ... will save it's life !! same with an automatic sit at a strewet corner .. that interaction with me and my dog .. saave both our lives once .. al;most gotr likked by someone speeding around a corner at night . i flionched and the dog immediately st . no command was given .. i hesitated and he sat on the blink of an eye..  this is the value of training IMO as it relates to living.. he did French Ring , Sch , Pers. Protection !! but this is what i always remember him by .. saving our lives ..

Hi Alphapup:

In training my first "schutzhund dog" I quickly discovered that I didn't have the fastest, nor most powerful dog, but what I did have was a great bond and relationship with her.  I had a dog that wanted to do whatever I asked.  My favorite part of the critigue in her schutzhund I and bh was that  Molly had a great temperment and was happy and wanted to work to please me.  My trainer always told me to exploit that relationship.  Yes I used a ball and food, but she was willing to work for a whoo hoo and a good pat.  I would imagine if I was a better trainer she could have done alot better, but we sure had alot of fun along the way.  I am worried that I won't have that type of bond again with my new dog, but sure hope so.

Cheryl


 

Horse whispering

You want to read about Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. They were the greats and the originals. True horsemen to their bones.

Pat Parelli has a lot of good techniques for suppling and training that can work well if done right. He learned a lot from Dorrance and Hunt. He is a good trainer but not my first choice. He's also a gimmick man that's making a fortune off selling unnecessary overpriced equipment and videos. Personally, I find him a bit annoying and there was something about him I just didn't care for.

Monty Roberts, I'll withhold my opinion of him.

John Lyons another great horseman and trainer. A very good colt starter. He also learned a lot from Dorrance and Hunt.

If you want a whisperer, you want Brannaman. He goes beyond the technique and training and gets into the horses soul. No one out there today is like Brannaman. He also learned from Dorrance and Hunt. He recognized early on that problem horses have people problems. Sort out the people and the horse will help sort himself.


A good dogman is fundamentally not much different then a good horseman. They know the animals sometimes better then they know themselves. The techniques are the same but different. In it's most simple form, with dogs we use reward and correction. Horses, pressure and release. Dogs are simpler in some ways, horses simpler in another.

With dogs, we forge the bond and the training at home with basics. Move on the different areas and distractions from there to refine it.


Ruger, ALL things start from the ground up. ;-) It's all about the foundation. Develop the bond on the ground and it's easy from there. If your foundation is weak, every layer on top will be at risk to crumble.

         Alphapup,

              I am afraid you are right about the way some folks see their animal companions as a means to an end...I have friends that are great horsemen and horsewomen, however there are clear differences between the two different mind sets....

              I always love to see a super competitive horse and rider achieve their goals together like a team..It is much different from the rider competing just for the points to make their horse more marketable or viewed as  mearly personal goal ....The losing is not as bad ,and the winning is that much better when you have that connection with your animal...JMO....: )


       Mobjack...

           I really enjoy John Lyons...His magazine ," Good Horse" was great,,, I will have to do some research on those other names...Thanks..: )

            Now that my girls have moved on from riding competitively and the horses are home with me, I am learning a lot about the importance of building a strong foundation...This is especially true with 1000 lb prey minded animals...A solid foundation is key....: )


                          Good thread...

             

While I don't know about horses, I'm really interested in this awesome thread.... some posts make it seem like the dog is only a means to an end. I have an opportunity to train as a decoy and learn about schH by a lady named Dr. Mary Adelman, I'm pretty excited and this topic extremely interesting to me, as I have not participated in this type of training before

i think in early years .. realizing that what we do with our horses , our dogs , for me in particular ... is even more applicable to human relationships .. .any concept you wish to indulge in with your dog , any , teaching , disciplining , playing , achieving /accomplishing  , trust , fear etcx etc.. ALL are analogous in our human relations !! how do we motivate our children , how do we teach our chil;-dren , how do we cope .. with challenges , puzzles , stress ??
            I once set out to train my dog[s]... i rude awakewning .... : my dogs taught me about life  and how to be a better human & person !! !!
           yes i like that statment .. training or interacting with nay creature ..is knowing ourselves and the soul and essence of our dogs , our childtren , how we are connected with all of life .              Ps. thanks for those references .. never heard of them as i do not have horses..

Quote: (waves to Mobjack)
You want to read about Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. They were the greats and the originals. True horsemen to their bones.

Very true. They were the first ones to teach that it's all about the relationship between human and horse. This applies to any animal you work with.

Hi y'all ;-)

Ruger, you will find that the trainers I listed all use basically the same techniques. They use different words to describe the same thing. If you don't have a rope halter yet, get one and learn how to fit it. You'll be amazed. If you ever have a chance to go to a seminar, GO. Especially Brannaman. I've been to a few including Lyons and Parelli but Brannaman is just different.

Alphapup says: THE LOST CONCEPT : your dog should want to come to you from it's heart so bad ... that you are in essence giving the dog permission to come to you , to enter your body space!!.. so big deal any  techniques .. so what is it's value ...  if you cannot recpitulate that same endeavor in your life ??

It is indeed a lost concept for many. How many SchHIII dogs out there are not reliable OFF the field unless you have a ball in your hand? And maybe not even then? Is the dog really trained? Training purely for an end point is always problematic. Somewhere, something fails and something else is lost. The difference is training only for routine and performance and training for enjoyment of just being with the dog. You CAN do both but the former without the latter is missing the partnership.

We have all seen and commented on an obedience performance where the dog is obviously enjoying the work and the joy and bond between the dog and the handler is obvious. Those handlers "get it". The performance may not be "perfect" in terms of points, but it is very pleasing to the eye. Much more so than the "perfect" 100 point routine performed by a robotic dog.