KNPV trouble - Page 1

I heard a disgruntled KNPV member went to a Dutch newspaper and informed them of the harsh training approaches different clubs were using and the newspaper set up hidden cameras and captured video of the harsh training approaches resulting in numerous KNPV clubs being thrown out and creating a problem for the sport. While I'm not a fan of such approaches, they are a big factor in what makes many of the KNPV dogs so good. If they can't tolerate the harsh training they are washed so only the hardest dogs remain to be bred. It will be interesting to see what will come of this in terms of the sport and any potential future effect on the types of dogs that are bred. I suppose people could go on doing things independent of the KNPV making sure they are out of sight of prying eyes. I don't think a lot of people in the states understand that what most here would call severe abuse is what helped the KNPV dogs become what they are.

I saw something about that too. Watching 'n waiting re developments.

Welcome to what happened to IPO!

Do you care to clarify? If you are saying there has been abusive training in IPO, and I know there has been, it is more the norm and culture of the Dutch KNPV trainers to be very harsh. First, they don't need anywhere near the precision and control required in IPO so they build the dogs' drives up to their genetic potential and then when they need some control, they use severe compulsion because that is the only way they can obtain it. Many KNPV trainers just want to get a PH1 on a dog and then sell it as a police prospect and get another. They don't see their dogs as pets and will wash a dog in a heartbeat, whereas in the states, it is often the opposite except for top level competitors. I think people who actually use more modern training approaches well are better trainers but because they often can teach rather than use primarily compulsion, the gene pool tends to have softer dogs in greater numbers.

You realize that to get that high level of precision required in IPO you can't get that with just cookie cutter training? Just because there is precision, doesn't mean the training isn't harsh, it doesn't mean there aren't ecollars or prong collars involved.

IPO used to be a very hard sport and in many cases it still is a hard sport at the higher levels. If you think that high level competitors won't wash their dogs in a heartbeat, you are very mistaken. Many of the professional handlers don't see their dogs as "pets" either and go through them like underwear until the find the right dog to compete with. The sport is way too expensive to waste your time on a dog that can't make it.

I see it as two different mindsets. You can obtain a high level of precision with e-collars and prongs and not be overly harsh on a dog, especially if a foundation that is well thought out is applied. In KNPV I don't think foundation training is part of the culture. As I said, they are mainly about getting their dogs crazy to bite and after they have accomplished that, and because the dogs are mainly Mal X's and have genetics for extreme prey, they then slap extreme compulsion on the dog and still only get the minimal control to pass a PH1. Most are not into getting higher level titles on their dogs because the goal is to produce police dogs more than top competition dogs.They also tend to start with a pup and will wash the pup for another pup. It is not nearly as much about fame and fortune either. In IGP, if a dog gets to the top, then he is the dog everyone wants to breed to when he might just be a top sport dog and not necessarily a good producer, so the financial incentives are different. I think another factor is that with high level IGP competitors who hunt for the type of dog that matches their training style and and has what it takes to do well at the highest levels, don't have much of a relationship with their dog and can be inpatient and overuse compulsion. Plus some are just abusive. I know of one handler who was on the U.S. world team and won the schH III American championship who would stomp his dog's head into the ground if the dog couldn't get a behavior right. In KNPV the goal is more to keep the gene pool strong and in IGP the goal is more to keep a handler's bank account strong. But all the sports are being diluted and after things settled down from 911 and its aftermath, different types of dogs were being bred with a movement away from the more dominant, serious, aggressive dogs.

It's a mute point to discuss with people who already have their mind set that this is how it's supposed to be.

Apple, you know some really abusive people, you mentioned something like this before, dont know if that is the same person you are talking about.
ANYONE who is willing to do shit like this to an animal for a couple of extra points needs "specialized attention" and proper decorum prevents me from describing exactly what kind.

BE, the word you were looking for is "MOOT", not mute....

BE,
I was saying I thought there were two different mindsets between the culture of KNPV training and the culture of highly competitive IGP training and was not referring at all to any mindset that I had.
HD,
I don't remember the other example you are referring to but it has been many years since I have seen training of that nature. I am very fortunate to train with a small club of very smart handlers who spend a lot of time laying a positive foundation that takes into consideration what behaviors will be trained well into the future so that the foundation is supportive of being successful in training those behaviors without the need for severe compulsion.  We use compulsion but only at the level required which is low because the dogs have learned so well what is being asked of them.  My point about KNPV training is that the handlers don't really think that way so they get the dog crazy to bite and then will use whatever it takes to get the little control they need.  I have heard of them hitting dogs with shovels, hitting dogs in the head with a small rock attached to a stick, multiple e-collars along the waist and frying the dog, etc.  My understanding is that is their way to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak so that only the hardest dogs make the cut.  You can't argue with their success but you can argue about their ethics.

apple
in either case, above mentioned by you, performance by dogs can be different but commercial goal is a main motive, be it sale of LE service dog or providing stud service for fees.
big role in training does play dog's temperament and attitude to handler. for sport purpose and K-9 services with no attack involved, the aggression and dominant nature is not necessary, in fact even not desirable.
and contrary - for purposes, where attack and fight a must, strong aggression and dominant attitude very much desirable quality. thus with such type of dog the conflict, at least in beginning, is not avoidable and there are no way to solve leadership issue between handler and dog in no harsh, forceful way.