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by Emoore on 22 March 2011 - 01:03
"How many wild Canids do you hear of dying from heart worm infestation?"
I did a quick search of the subject, but all the studies I found killed the animals and inspected their hearts for worms, so obviously they didn't die of infestation. Honestly, around my area coyotes tend to be shot for the bounty or hit by cars before they can die of heart worms. How many coyotes, wolves, and foxes live to be 12-14 years old? My guess is not many, but we'd all like our companion dogs to live at least that long.
I did a quick search of the subject, but all the studies I found killed the animals and inspected their hearts for worms, so obviously they didn't die of infestation. Honestly, around my area coyotes tend to be shot for the bounty or hit by cars before they can die of heart worms. How many coyotes, wolves, and foxes live to be 12-14 years old? My guess is not many, but we'd all like our companion dogs to live at least that long.
by jaggirl47 on 22 March 2011 - 02:03
My now 10 year old GSD tested positive for HW at his one year check up. We sent blood out to verify as well as xrays and EKG. He was, for sure positive. The only issue was, he had been on Heartguard for a year. He was started at 8 weeks.
My vet spoke with the company and they paid for his treatment. However, if I knew then what I know now, he would never have done the treatment. He was given the arsenic IV meds and was in the vet for 3 days. He was never the same healthwise after that.
My vet spoke with the company and they paid for his treatment. However, if I knew then what I know now, he would never have done the treatment. He was given the arsenic IV meds and was in the vet for 3 days. He was never the same healthwise after that.
by JLB82 on 22 March 2011 - 02:03
I just read humans could get heart worms too. I wouldn't suggest readin any of that. It sounds like a nightmare how it is described.
by Ruger1 on 22 March 2011 - 03:03
JLB82...
The Internet is a good resourse, but it can sometimes cause more alarm then is necessary.....: )
I would get a second test by another vet...That's just me...: )
And stay off the Internet for now...: )
What state are you located in..??
Hoping the best for your dog...: )
Deanna...
by Sue-Ann on 22 March 2011 - 12:03
A repeat test is a good idea. Even if the 2nd test comes up positive, heartworm is not a death sentence for your dog. Monthly Ivomec treatments will keep additional larvea from becoming adults and eventually the adults will die off. You can buy Ivomec from KVVet.com Save your money, don't opt for expensive treatments.
I'm not a vet...just an experienced breeder/owner using common sense and giving advice owner to owner.
Sue-Ann
I'm not a vet...just an experienced breeder/owner using common sense and giving advice owner to owner.
Sue-Ann
by Ruger1 on 22 March 2011 - 14:03
by beetree on 22 March 2011 - 14:03
I got a question. If the danger of the treatment is how the dead heartworms are expelled, how does letting them live out their natural lives (between 3-5 years), as Sue-Anne pointed out, "...the adults will eventually die off....", be of any benefit?
I read that artilcle Ruger1, but I can't get past how worms in the heart, can't be causing problems, IMHO.
I read that artilcle Ruger1, but I can't get past how worms in the heart, can't be causing problems, IMHO.
by Don Corleone on 22 March 2011 - 15:03
Not a vet, or a veteran, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express, last night. Get a second opinion. Just the way you describe your vet, she/he sounds like a used car salesman trying to use the "don't delay" pitch, as if you think about it for 24 hrs, the dog is doomed. Why would the vet need to order the meds immediately?
by Ruger1 on 22 March 2011 - 15:03
beetree...
There are human conditions, such as certain types of breast cancer that we can detect and treat very early in the disease process with diagnostic testing. However, there are some that claim it is futile because by the time the cancer would be of any consequence the person would have lived out a full and asymptotic life span...That might be the point the article is tryiing to make..Not sure...: )
As a nurse seeing many things with regard to quality of life vs quantity of life, I personally opt for quality, rather than quantity where length of life is concerned...JMO.....
Those are very hard choices to make no doubt... : )
by hexe on 22 March 2011 - 19:03
beetree wrote:
"I got a question. If the danger of the treatment is how the dead heartworms are expelled, how does letting them live out their natural lives (between 3-5 years), as Sue-Anne pointed out, "...the adults will eventually die off....", be of any benefit?"
The theory behind this has to do with the way the body could potentially react to a mass of dead adult worms breaking off of the heart and entering the circulatory system, versus the potential for that type of response if the adults die off individually or in small numbers over the course of time. The risk of anaphylactic response by the body to a sudden influx of foreign proteins being dumped into the bloodstream, along with the potential for the dead worms to create a pulmonary obstruction if they become lodged as a mass, has to be weighed against the damage the continued presence of adult heartworms will do to the heart and lungs.
Generally speaking, the 'treatment' method of leaving the adult worms remain while preventing any larvae from maturing into adult worms with the use of ivermectin is not considered to be the 'gold standard' of treatment for the very fact that the adult worms--which are what cause the damage to the pulmonary system--are being left to continue to cause harm to the dog. That being said, however, in certain instances it is the only option available for the dog: in instances where the dog is not likely to be able to tolerate the adulticide treatment due to health issues (which may or may not be related to the HW infection itself), or where the alternative is going to be doing absolutely nothing (which places other people's animals at risk, as the infected dog will continue to serve as a reservoir from which mosquitos will ingest the larvae before they take a blood meal from someone else's dog). It is also viewed as a responsible choice for dogs in rescue channels if funding is not available for full treatment, for these same reasons.
"I read that artilcle Ruger1, but I can't get past how worms in the heart, can't be causing problems, IMHO"
Whoever would claim that the permitting the adult worms to remain will not cause any problems is suffering from naïveté. There are three options for a dog that has adult heartworms: the first is to do nothing; the second, and best, eliminate the adult worms and then follow up with larvacidal treatment; and the third, treat only with a larvacidal in an attempt to control the disease instead of eliminating it in the patient. All three options carry risks and benefits, but there is NEVER any benefit TO THE OTHERWISE HEALTHY DOG in leaving the adult worms remain and just controlling the production of larvae.
To the OP, I would absolutely NOT put my dog through treatment on the basis of a single test, SNAP or otherwise. At *least* one additional confirmatory test would be necessary before I would authorize treatment, especially in a dog so young that has been on preventative without interuption. I'm presuming that is what you mean when you say your dog has been on a HW preventative--that he's been taking it year 'round, with no breaks in the winter or otherwise. Depending on the recommendations for your particular area, however, the vets may only prescribe the product to be used during certain months, which should also provide sufficient protection in those locales.
HW preventatives do have a high degree of efficacy, especially when they are used all year long, but like everything in this world, nothing's perfect and living things don't always respond the way one expects...and that includes the lowly heartworm parasite. It only takes a few larvae that somehow mount a resistance to the
"I got a question. If the danger of the treatment is how the dead heartworms are expelled, how does letting them live out their natural lives (between 3-5 years), as Sue-Anne pointed out, "...the adults will eventually die off....", be of any benefit?"
The theory behind this has to do with the way the body could potentially react to a mass of dead adult worms breaking off of the heart and entering the circulatory system, versus the potential for that type of response if the adults die off individually or in small numbers over the course of time. The risk of anaphylactic response by the body to a sudden influx of foreign proteins being dumped into the bloodstream, along with the potential for the dead worms to create a pulmonary obstruction if they become lodged as a mass, has to be weighed against the damage the continued presence of adult heartworms will do to the heart and lungs.
Generally speaking, the 'treatment' method of leaving the adult worms remain while preventing any larvae from maturing into adult worms with the use of ivermectin is not considered to be the 'gold standard' of treatment for the very fact that the adult worms--which are what cause the damage to the pulmonary system--are being left to continue to cause harm to the dog. That being said, however, in certain instances it is the only option available for the dog: in instances where the dog is not likely to be able to tolerate the adulticide treatment due to health issues (which may or may not be related to the HW infection itself), or where the alternative is going to be doing absolutely nothing (which places other people's animals at risk, as the infected dog will continue to serve as a reservoir from which mosquitos will ingest the larvae before they take a blood meal from someone else's dog). It is also viewed as a responsible choice for dogs in rescue channels if funding is not available for full treatment, for these same reasons.
"I read that artilcle Ruger1, but I can't get past how worms in the heart, can't be causing problems, IMHO"
Whoever would claim that the permitting the adult worms to remain will not cause any problems is suffering from naïveté. There are three options for a dog that has adult heartworms: the first is to do nothing; the second, and best, eliminate the adult worms and then follow up with larvacidal treatment; and the third, treat only with a larvacidal in an attempt to control the disease instead of eliminating it in the patient. All three options carry risks and benefits, but there is NEVER any benefit TO THE OTHERWISE HEALTHY DOG in leaving the adult worms remain and just controlling the production of larvae.
To the OP, I would absolutely NOT put my dog through treatment on the basis of a single test, SNAP or otherwise. At *least* one additional confirmatory test would be necessary before I would authorize treatment, especially in a dog so young that has been on preventative without interuption. I'm presuming that is what you mean when you say your dog has been on a HW preventative--that he's been taking it year 'round, with no breaks in the winter or otherwise. Depending on the recommendations for your particular area, however, the vets may only prescribe the product to be used during certain months, which should also provide sufficient protection in those locales.
HW preventatives do have a high degree of efficacy, especially when they are used all year long, but like everything in this world, nothing's perfect and living things don't always respond the way one expects...and that includes the lowly heartworm parasite. It only takes a few larvae that somehow mount a resistance to the
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