Civil Aggression - Page 2

" I suppose it depends on who is defining civil aggression. "
I think so, too.

The kind of "civil" I think about is not suitable for families not used to this kind of dog.
Most often not the dog is the problem, but family members not knowing how to handle that kind of dog.
Children are unpredictable, and their faces are pretty close to the teeth of a dog...think about that.

A "civil" dog suitable for a "normal" family setting needs
to be well tempered
absolutely stable
well trained
to have a low prey drive
to have a high threshold ( sudden noises, pain )
to have no desire to climb up the pack order ( dominance )

Toddlers and
high prey drive dogs = no good fit
dominant dogs = no good fit
dogs with low threshold = no good fit
food aggressive dogs = no good fit

When you look at this list a "civil" dog fitting to all these points will be more than rare, maybe impossible to find ( and for "training" not the best dog / high threshold, low prey drive, no dominance ).

I raised several "civil" minded dogs at home - but I had to train my son more intense than the dogs - and I was more than careful all the times. Thinking back there have been several situations my son only had "luck" ( or the dog was better than thought ), all conflicts caused by the child, not by the dogs...

Now people will tell me that a good dog will tolerate children - yes, he will, but only up to a certain point.

Dont agree susie I have 2dogs very high drive food drive unbelievably and ball drive mad aggression one of the highest iv seen in a long time the female is so explosive when she was younger she could not play with the kids . She did not come and live in the house till she was 3years of age thats how long it yook her to understand the rules. The male I still dont let my family play ball out side with him he is way to strong and intense. Both are very dominant and now fully understand the rules . But of course so do the kids

Yogi, you DO agree with me ...

Susie may I as how maybe I miss understood your post

Susie, well explained, high preydrive dogs may couse more problems in family settings than civil dogs
ball in hands, and running kids are triggers

but for both type of dogs it is all about responsible dog ownership

I have raised children and also grandchildren with very civil dogs over many years. Both sides of the equation have to learn boundaries. A good stable temperament on a " balanced" civil dog has no problem learning family/pack boundaries and manners. Now folks outside the family/pack it depends on situation. Now if the dog is civil and either reactive, or unbalanced in drives, yes I would have concerns. But the biggest problem with civil dogs is being in the wrong environment or family/owner. Everyone should not own a GS, and people forget that. I have two consultations tomorrow for civil dogs referred by Animal hospital, in which I've talked to both owners by phone in setting up the appt. and just listening to what they have allowed to occur since the dog was puppy,  clearly tells me they have not a clue how to raise a GS with boundaries.

Some good posts here. How come we do not here the term "discerment" anymore. Maybe it has to do with the quest for over the top prey drive which seems to have lowered essential thresholds.

Discernment - that´s a skill based on several factors like

intelligence
instincts / drives
education
temperament

Even human beings are not able to control themselves all the times, but we claim to be the most developed creatures on this planet...

I agree with Susie and especially Duke, is all about responsible dog ownership. Is also a fact that  many people who cherish civil dogs don,t socialize at all afraid to affect there dogs civil ness.

To me a dog that bites pack members or the hand that feeds him is a freak of nature often resulting in his own demise. Wreck less intensive line breeding sometimes result in a dog with drives that overrides their survival instincts.

Such dog is not suitable to live in a family setting or pack environment.

 

Most people think they own civil dogs but they don't ( and no your dog bark and hold isn't being civil )  a real civil dog should only be owned by an experience handler and kenneled .. to come across a real civil dog specially a gsd nowadays is like finding sand in the arctic .. they're very few and far between and declining rapidly.