Nervous Bite - Page 2

I don't like a dog that bites the handler back after a FAIR correction, only because it shows me a dog who is more willing to fight with me than to work with me.  If the correction is unfair, then all bets are off and the handler gets what they asked for.  Some do it out of nerves, some out of aggression and some as avoidance to work.

Dog biting someone else who gives them a correction (not the handler or family member) I couldn't care less about. 

Hitting a dog with a stick for attention as a helper is only warranted sometimes.  It is overdone by many.

 i've seen many dog that have no problem engaging owner, but not too courageous on the helper , , basic fight or flight behaviour, when they cant handle pressure from handler, and on the line, they cannot flight, so all is left is fight.

She would never dream of biting me. She's a total love bug, who puts her paws in my lap a couple of times a day to get hugs and scritches. That's why I was so shocked!

During the drive, of course, I let go of the leash, so she is free to do as she pleases. The helper has only started to do stick hits on her in the last couple of weeks. I was afraid they'd cause her to back off, and her reaction has surprised me. If anything, stick hits and the helper cracking the whip seem to amp up her drive.

personally I would never let a "trainer" give a harsh correction to MY dog; I'm not a fan of harsh corrections period, but I firmly believe any correction in training should come from ME, not a stranger. Also, you say both of you are jsut starting out, but yet the dog is already being worked in aggression?   Maybe I'm just reading things into your post that are not there. :(

There is no defence training on the dog only biting the owner in prey.   Courage or fight drive is not built yet.  Better take that dog to an experienced trainer, not just a guy who catches dogs.    2 questions would to Sunsliver to ask would be: 1 How many trainers / helpers / deocoys...etc really know how to build courage fight drive???   2 Why do we see so many imports and dogs who bite very confidently in prey, but really wouldn't bite a person?   Get those answered in depth and I think you will answer a lot of your quesions on this post.  If you need more information just call me,, no problem 580-512-6629 or email.  Bill@TexomaK-9.com

Flipper...biting the owner??  WTF?? You obviously did not read my post, if you are talking about my dog! She has NEVER (other than puppy nips) tried to bite me!

Spruell, I did not say this dog was new to training, just to protection.  She is pretty much ready for her BH. It has taken awhile (over a year) as she was previously worked in CKC style training, and was reluctant to do the focused heel. I had to learn how to do it, too. I also said our trainer does not work her in obedience any  more, due to her biting him. And when I say 'harsh correction', I am talking about a correction with a fur saver, so not as harsh as some might think. But my DOG definitely saw it as harsh and unfair! 

We started protection training in March, and at first, she was very lacking in confidence. Everone sees a big difference in her now. Our trainer says "I am seeing a whole different dog here!"

Spruell,

There are no absolutes in training

You NEVER know what any dog will do or be like until you put them in that position...

I started over 40 years ago using compulsion to train dogs...Choke Chain & Leash...Since then I've learned many different techniques...You should find the right way to work each dog...What works best for your dog...

It's also very important to use the method of training that is not only good for the dog but for the handler/trainer...

Every dog has a point where they will bite...It's their way of protecting themself...But a correction should not only be for a reason...but be fair in the degree of correction (how much pressure is applied)...

I have had good...strong dogs that would (during obedience) let you correct them Once...and everything was fine...Second...and they would growl a little bit...On the Third Correction...the dog would nip or bite you...They warn you that that's their limit...Learn your dog and work within their boundaries...

It's all a learning process...The more you work with your dog the more you're learning about them and how they react to different methods...

~Bob~

I think I got my answer as to my dog's state of mind during the drive. I noticed her tail wagging when she was growling! 

Our TD worked the new working line bitch I have a co-ownership with for the first time today. He says she's got a bite worse than an alligator!

Uh-huh. The first time she was ever worked at the club, with a different helper, he praised her drive and bite, and quickly swapped the puppy sleeve for the hard sleeve!

  Concerning of growl during and before the bite. 

@Sunsilver. Dogs bite for 2 reasons. One is defense drive  based on protectiveness or dominance where the dog is instinctively protecting it self, his young ones, it's territory and food and pack members( you),... against threat, and the second is a defense based on dominance and it  has to do with packing order and breeding rights.

The other reason dog bites is out of prey drive based on original  desire to hunt in order to provide food.

Dog who growls is doing so because it is in defense.  Dog where prey is much  a dominant drive  does not growl.   When the defense drive start to take hold or if it is dominant drive then the dog may growl.  In defense dog chooses between flight or fight.  Closer to flight  he gets less confidence he has and vice versa. Growling as such however is not necessarily sign of lack of confidence.  Lack of confidence must be judged as a whole picture of a dog which includes the pitch  of the growl and other accompanying physical behavior  and not particularly only  on the fact that the dog is growling (or not). 

 The evaluation of the confidence of the dog's  bite in relationship to growling,  is   based on trainers  needs. 

 Sport trainers and LE or PP trainers whose bite work is based mostly on sport /prey experience and desire  -  like the dog to be mostly in prey. Dog predominantly in prey looks better in the competition and does not growl. If the sport dog slips into defense that is  because the dog perceived the situation as a defensive. Thus he recognized it as a threat. What matters now is why did the dog slipped into defense. It may be that the dog is genetically to be predisposed to be more defense then prey. There is nothing wrong with that, but such dog is usually not desirable in sport because he does not look good during hit's performance. 

Or the sport dog slipped into defense because the situation was just too stressful for him/her. If the sport is trained properly,  there is not much stressful going on for sound dog especially if the sport is IPO/SchH. More tress is present in other sports like in PSA where the scenario is changing and thus is not as routine. Thus if the dog slipped into defense because such dog see the not too threatening scenario as a threat and he does it despite correct foundation work then such dog has week nerves. Either of these two types dogs  may or may not growl however even so you will often hear that dog who slipped into defense has weak nerves in fact  may or may not be truth. 

 If the trainer is more PP oriented and want from the dog natural inherited protectiveness will desire such dog more then sport trainer. Good PP trainer will utilize more prey then defense just as well as defense more then prey dog. Such trainer will channel confidence of the more dominant drive into the other- les prominent drive because such trainer see the need for both drives. 

 As far as the growl itself goes.

Deep normal , solid  growl before or during solid full bite,  with confident posture and direct approach, wagging tail of excitrement is also showing enjoyment and  where no hesitation is present and where  the dog is clearly choosing fight over flight   such dog generally does not have weak nerves.

Dog with growl during or before the bite moving up and down in its pitch in fashion of high -low and where such  growl is usually  accompanied by body language signaling that the dog may at any moment choose flight over fight, the approach is hesitant, sideways and otherwise worrisome and who bites tip of the sleeve   is nervous and getting over powered by the stress of the situation. That dog is over stressed. Now that may be due to weak nerves ( genetics) or due to improper training ( environmental) or both.

 Prager Hans

Thank you for the summation, Hans!

The only situation so far where she growls is when she's taking stick hits during the drive. Last week, I saw her tail wagging while this was happening, so she's obviously NOT afraid. I think it's like a play growl. The helper is upping the ante by hitting her, and making her fight. So, I think it's like when a dog growls during a game of tug: the harder you pull the more excited they get, and the more determined not to let go, so they begin to growl.

Before I saw the tail wagging, I thought, "Her body language makes me think she's pissed off at the helper!"