2-2 Line/In breeding - Page 5

And even where such information ^^^ is known to people in the breed, YaYa: a) the breeders and others who would know are not necessarily on PDB, having better things to do with their time generally; but if they are here, and yet don't have reference points to the lines involved, it is difficult for them to comment in any case;
and b) there is the same reluctance that you yourself display to 'name names', because conveying critical info about even a dog now long dead is frought with problems.

The best we can mostly do is the detective work that Western Rider suggests - look for what is NOT achieved, spoken about, etc in your puppies ancestry.

In studying what had happened in earlier generations, the dogs I would be trying hardest to research would be those whose names you do not give. Not the better-known sires, but the often more difficult to track tail-female strands of the pedigree, and their male, and female, ancestry.


Or - reconcile yourself to trusting in your breeder's prior knowledge and that the claims they make are accurate (I'm not saying they are not !); and/or to "all puppies being a crap shoot",
as they always are to some extent, dogs being individuals not clones and the gene permutations being multiple. BUT THESE PUPS WILL BE, in any case, however good and knowledgeable the breeder, BECAUSE IT IS THE FIRST SUCH MATING OF THAT COMBINATION, on the breeder's own admission. IF s/he was repeating an earlier breeding, the progeny of which were older than a few months, you and the breeder would have a bit more to go on as to whether it will be a good outcome, or not.

Mackenzie
As a small breeder I try to keep track of every puppy I produce
It is the buyer who ceases to provide info
I occasionally go thru my records and reach out to those I have not heard from hoping for updates explaining that the info gathered is an important tool used in my breeding choices
And, I will always take back any dog that I have bred and I do mean any
I don't t care the age the health or the reason.
I am responsible for every dog/,pup I breed for that dogs life..
Always room at the Inn

KitKat 3478 - I am not pointing the finger at you or anyone else specifically. However, it is good to see that you appear to be honorable in what you are doing.

Mackenzie

ya ya x 4.... as one who has done tight linebreeding, but is big advocate of genetic diversity, I think that it has its place to maybe set a type or strengthen an area, but it requires extensive knowledge or luck. I would say the rule of thumb would be tight linebreeding is for breeders of vast experience who have had the siblings/parents of dogs used for at least three generations. This will not prevent negative effects, but will greatly reduce chances as you have better knowledge of hidden resessives that may be in line. (The drama Kings/Queens will use straw man argument of negative possibilities to knock anything but what they practice.)
I think inexperienced breeders and first generation dogs should not be tightly linebred on, it requires more indepth understanding than those breeders or dogs present.
Don't get caught up with theoretical or hypothetical experts with no hands on experience for a subject as complex as this....get some first hand knowledge ( both the good and bad) from breeders that can realistically tell you what to expect rather that theoretically. Though the theoretical is possible, the realistic is probable....which of these do you think will better serve you until you are experienced enough to know the differences yourself?

So, I only provided a few dogs from the pedigrees, but I in no way cherry-picked. I selected great-grands because they were close enough to this litter to show the quality and lack of or infrequent linebreeding that had gone on in previous generations and to show that these 3 lines appeared unrelated.

Without DNA tests and with dogs who are from all over (these pedigrees come from US, East Germany, Czech, Dutch, etc.), can I even find out about these bloodlines? If so, HOW?

As to younger progeny from these lines (half-siblings and cousins from other kennels /breeders), I am having trouble finding the data. Where should I be looking?

If I were simply looking for a companion who I planned to teach some cool tricks and have some fun, I would probably get one of these pups and enjoy the adventure as it unfolds without doing further digging. I am intrigued by these lines and this choice. And let me say, I have seen worse lines producing poor outcomes (no or bad drive, poor conformation, etc breeding without being this tight while I've been shopping). BUT as I wish this dog for my business and my family, I want to do my due diligence in the background check.

Thank you again to those pointing me in useful directions.

*And years ago, I considered breeding when I was really into Labradors and Weimaraners. For me CULLING would have included both sterilizing the less than ideal and euthanizing those way beyond the pale. Hopefully, we can all agree to disagree on culling for this thread.

Oh for Pete's sake, Jenni. You wanted a disclaimer from me, I gave it to you. And you still drag it on like I meant something else. Time to move along from me.

YaYa4--

What does your vet say? If it's a small community where everyone knows everyone and you want to get an unbiased opinion and avoid putting the vet in the middle, can you get an opinion from a vet a from outside of the community before making your decision?  Maybe contact the AKC National or State German Sherpherd Dog Club (without naming the breeder) for information/advice?

Good luck on whatever you decide... whatever puppy you get, s/he's cute now and will love you unconditionally his/her whole life :-)
 

For Pete's sake. I never said cull can't mean kill or that traditionally it didn't often mean kill, and still does. I merely said it DOESN'T ALWAYS need to mean death and many cull/select against undesirable traits by sterilizing and finding homes (assuming a healthy pup). My point was that "having to cull" is kind of a poor argument against closer linebreeding, because it's by no means set in stone that just because you have a tight breeding, pups will be somehow deformed as a few were trying to insinuate in a very sensational way, imo. Tight linebreeding doesn't "make" bad genes- it merely exposes them in a hurry. Personally, I like to cross total outcrosses on heavily linebred dogs, provided the linebred dogs are what I consider "tried and true."

Here is a dog I bought with what I consider very desirable linebreeding: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2257371-veronica-von-der-prinzenbruecke

Again, the closest I have ever done is my youngest litter, which is 2-3 on Uno vom Stadtfeld,, a dog/line I am very comfortable doing this with.

Yay, again, I think the key to the question is the breeder's experience and knowledge. This is not something I would want to be a guinea pig for unless both of those were in line.

can you get an opinion from a vet a from outside of the community before making your decision?  Maybe contact the AKC National or State German Sherpherd Dog Club (without naming the breeder) for information/advice?

I don't think either of the above suggestions make sense, primarily because the advice AKC etc can provide, would be very generic and may not apply at all to this particular close breeding.  If there is trust in the breeder, that is who I would rely on, for more insights from this breeding, and the intent behind it.

YaYax4: "I selected great-grands because they were close enough to this litter to show the quality and lack of..."

I had hands on experience with a dog and his sibling that came from "nice" Czech lines that I've heard good things about. Both these dogs weren't good examples of the breed. Very scared, soft dogs.

Goes to show that just because the parents are great examples, they don't necessarily pass this on to their offspring. I say that to say, the great-grand parents might be amazing, but that's far removed from the puppies. I'm not saying anything about this particular litter. I'm just saying, a lot could've been lost in these generations.