2-2 Line/In breeding - Page 1

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by YaYa x4 on 02 August 2017 - 20:08

I am new here and have read all the posts I could find about line- and in-breeding without finding what I was looking for.

I am looking at a GSD working line pup that is from a mating of half-siblings on their sire's side. My first reaction was this must have been an Oooops and as a person of science and math I thought "Nope" on the prospect, but as I looked at their bloodlines overall and spoke with the breeder, I am thinking that it possibly could be a situation with potential. The three grandparents appear unrelated as far as I could dig. Also, they themselves only had line breeding quite a ways back in their own lines (6,8 or more generations back with several generations between those and other records of even earlier line breedings). The breeder has been breeding dogs of good reputation for several years, but his other litters were not line bred- this is a new endeavor. He is trying to further one particularly wonderful dog's (and bloodline's) traits for intelligence, drive, nerve, and physical size- it is not about something frivolous like a pretty coat color, he is breeding for balanced working dogs. I know that the retired dog is one of his own dogs and as such, he knows all of this dog's strengths and weaknesses along with all of the information on the dog's pedigree. I must say that I am looking for not only a personal dog, but one as a clinic dog for my business. I need smart, strong, and stable and honestly looking at the one dog's bloodline, titles, and pics- I would love to have a dog from that line...

That being said, I think this is a "test" litter and as such I know there are no guarantees, but is there anyone out there with experience that thinks this could actually be a good opportunity? I know many people would run away from a 2-2, but with half-siblings it is my understanding that this mating's COI is ~12.5% which is comparable to a grandsire and granddaughter mating that more people seem comfortable with...Ideally, if he could have used his dog, before retiring him, with a grand- or great granddaughter or had he used an uncle to the daughter, etc. the goal could have possibly been accomplished in a more traditional way, but... Here we are with a litter of good looking pups and me with a decision.


Any thoughts or help would be most appreciated! Thank you.

Reliya

by Reliya on 02 August 2017 - 20:08

Can you share the pedigree so we can have more insight?

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 02 August 2017 - 20:08

 


Nothing wrong with strong linebreeding 2.2 but you have to know sure the health and properties
from every dog in that pedigree +, and - most breeders will tell you only the gold and not the bad things.

Also I will not going blind for 2.2 strong line breeding why because the stud and female are responsible what they produce and some dogs don,t produce the strong and good dogs behind in their
pedigrees.

I have seen last year a linebreding brother X sister from a very hardcore strong bloodline the best of the best what people saying whatever the litter was only crap, there was only 1 pup out 11 what was good enough what they expected.

Better go for proven quality producer male/female from several litters or a  proven quality repeat litter IMO with also proven good health results.

 

 


by GSCat on 03 August 2017 - 02:08

Are the sire and dam free of DM (0/0, not even a carrier) and are their hips certified? What about past generations? Is there another common ancestor farther back, and if so, how far back is he/she, and is he/she in the lineage of the common parent, or the not-common parents?

Are the puppies old enough for temperament testing? If so, how well does the overall litter fit the purpose, and if there is a specific puppy, how well does he/she match the intended purpose?

Will the breeder take the puppy back for any reason for his/her entire life? Is there a health guarantee? Long enough for the puppy to be tested after turning 2?

Are you planning on breeding your puppy, or spaying/neutering and using for pet, therapy, emotional support, or work only?

I'm a little uncomfortable since the half siblings duplicate 50 percent of their genetic background, and we don't have any information about the grandparents, great grandparents, etc. How close to "perfect" in temperament and conformation is the common parent? IMHO a dog needs be a great specimen to have his/her genes passed on... in this case, it seems to me that the common parent should be double great to have his/her genes passed on at double strength. Of course, great or double great does not mean perfect, and great could be a specific trait or group of traits that the breeder is working to produce/strengthen (or eliminate). One indicator of the truth of the breeder's stated purpose (as opposed to an oopsie) may be whether the breeder is intending to keep a puppy from the litter for breeding.

There is no harm in going and looking before you make a decision. If you've never had a "good quality" GSD puppy before, you might want to look at another litter or at least some video from reputable kennels/breeders so you know what they should look and act like before you go. Be prepared to fall in love (cuteness). If you can't visit the breeder, will the breeder send pix and video?








by beetree on 03 August 2017 - 02:08

Look for the Good, The Bad and the Ugly. Choose well, if given the choice. Therein lies the rub.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 03 August 2017 - 05:08

All puppies are a crap-shoot. Having taken that fact on board first, then take the advice from everyone here (well, maybe with the exception of that last gnomic utterance); and DO YOUR RESEARCH. Some of this may be basic advice you already know, but for the benefits of the wider audience here:

'Get your eye in' with what a healthy well-bred pup should look like; its fascinating how many people have never set eyes on puppies that young before they first go to buy one. Check out the previous generations as much as possible for anything known about hereditary medical conditions, including Haemophilia A and Epilepsy, or breed faults (e.g. non-Standard colours)
- this is where presenting the details of the proposed pedigree here might help to find you more information; in closely line-bred dogs you are risking the 'doubling up' of genes more and more, which is why inbreeding problems and weaknesses might appear. See the puppy with its mother. Try to see the father as well, sounds as though that may be easier in this case than for many buyers !

Good luck, whichever way you jump.

by Mackenzie on 03 August 2017 - 07:08

The WUSV and the SV in their attempt to harmonise the breed will be imposing on ban on inbreeding 1/1,1/2,2/1,2/2,2/3,and 3/2.

Anyone who uses a 2/2 inbreed is also stamping in the faults and problems which may several years to correct. Foolish!

Mackenzie

by YaYa x4 on 03 August 2017 - 11:08

I am trying to be discrete as we live in small nearby towns and the breeder has been respectful and professional and I do not wish to have him feel “called out” about his breeding decision. He also is allowing me to pass to his next planned traditional litter if I still have reservations about these double-dipped pups.

-Reliya, as to pedigree- I feel comfortable linking some of the great-grandparents’ pedigrees (that I could find or access). Almost every dog in all the pedigrees are titled and from what I could tell going back 12-15+ generations that the 3 grandparents’ lines do not seem to cross.

I feel comfortable sharing that the grandsire comes from DDR/European lines that include:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=373299-robby-von-der-moschel
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=363416-grit-vom-hellersteg
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=123636-glenn-von-der-huhnergasse

and the maternal granddam has:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=530409-karats-oliver

I do not have a way to link to the paternal granddam’s info. She too seems unrelated.

-BlackMalinois- The grandsire he is trying to preserve the lines has been a consistent producer of dogs with good drive and trainability, great health (so far no problems), and perfect nerves (he breeds largely for K-9/military, service, etc.). He also has used the half-brother to this ‘wonder’ dog, but those pups have very high drive and that’s not his preference. The bitch to these pups has produced pups with medium drive, excellent trainability, and no health problems (so far).

-GSCat and Handmutter-
Breeder states no negative health in his dogs he’s bred or that he know of in lines. I am trying to figure out how to confirm. His standard guarantee is 2 years, but if I take one of these, I am asking for an extension. I will have our vet check the pup out to verify structure, etc.

The pups are 4 weeks old. Looked at them last night. Their little personalities are just coming out. I am interested in females and the 3 already showed definite signs drive- there is an alpha high drive (possibly super-high), a confident medium, and a sweet pup that was content to just hang out… Breeder said the latter would probably be a good pet for some family based on what he is seeing so far. We all know that in the next 3-4 weeks things can and probably will change though.

Can you all post some pics of what 4 week old properly bred working lines should look like? And maybe some 8 week olds? That could help make sure I really know what I think I am seeing!

Thank you all again for points to consider and things to look for.

BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 03 August 2017 - 12:08

 


Ya Ya thanks for all your explenation about all your dogs behind in the pedigree
 

 Hope you will get what you like


BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 03 August 2017 - 14:08

pup 8 weeks old on the suit Good natural drives,good grip but its still very young to make conclusions the total package at this age.

 

https://vimeo.com/171997243






 


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