Bitework Question: How should trainer progress. - Page 8

Mithuna, glad to hear that you've got a workable solution--be forewarned, however, that dogs in general, and GSDs in particular, may respond in the opposite manner than is desired when given acepromazine if they become hyperstimulated as a result of fear or pain, as they will actively fight the sedative effects of the medication. Hopefully this doesn't happen with your girl, and her medical care can hereafter proceed uneventfully, but want you to be aware of the phenomenon should it present.

Mithuna: Only 3 persons ( my family ) can approach this dog. So as soon as decoy approaches the tendency to defend over rides everything and the dog wants to bite decoy in a very intense way. She rips the sleeve from him but does not hold it . She drops it and goes at decoy again.

GSDfan: The following IMO is a description of "correct and balanced temperament": A German shepherd should not aggress on a friendly or neutral person without command, whether the dog is civil or not. A GSD is supposed to be aloof but stable... The problem with your dog is he is working in defense and he has no inhibitions with biting a person for real (and apparently had some concerning situations or incidents which Hexe and Sunsilver are referring to?) and you are now rewarding and encouraging him to bite which re-inforces that behavior is not only ok but good.... therefore obdience and control now have to take precedence because it is a huge safety issue.

Prager: A big part of at least my training is to teach the dog to defuse and accept people. Defensive dog is not dog who hates world. that is a misguided ignorant perception of sport people and trainers who build dog strictly on prey.

Mithuna: This dog was well socialized up to 6 months of age, after which her defense came out very suddenly; since then she will not let strangers handle her ( except if they stand completely motionless and allow her to approach them ....but please dont move your hands ).  

Sunsilver:

Prager: The dog-this dog probably - is either  overly protective or insecure or both. That is most often based on my experience caused by the owner's inability or unwillingness to establish leadership position. The insecurity is then built from puppyhood since the pup had no guidance from a leader. The dog has no guideline thus he sets his own rules without the leader's input. And that leads to disaster...

And then, Mithuna confirms this by saying: I deliberately never did any obedience because I did not want to dilute any thing she had naturally by continuous restraint.

Sunsilver:

Oh, and this: Mithuna: The vet's solution [to the dog being aggressive with the vet] was 50 mg ace promezine + muzzle. This was suggested by and approved by the vet. Fine so far.

Sunsilver: At this point, like Susie, I am thinking it's not a matter of if this dog will bite an innocent person, it's WHEN!

You have no business doing bitework with this dog UNTIL you have clearly established your leadership position with her, and have a rock-solid foundation of obedience, to the point where you can instantly call her off if she goes after someone.

In the meantime, I hope you know a good lawyer...

 

In mean time Mithuna needs to manage the dog in a way that the dog does not bite anyone. Managemant is iportant. I used to own some serious MF dogs but they never hurt anyone because I managed them correctly and did not alow them to hurt anyone. To drug the dog is horrific IMO solution. Muzzle is good but in this culture it is admission to the fact that the dog is dangerous which legally is a problem especially in NYC. I am dealing with dog-owner relationship all the time . This is one of the most common serious problems. I do not want to offend anyone but this culture is often too gentle and permissive and thus often does not understand these dogs. They are like fire in saying:  Fire is a great  servant but a bad  master​.

 The methods of thraining not involving 4 pillars or quadrants is big p[art of it. I do not saying this because I  want to get into pissing contest about this again. Not at all I am just repeating it because I beleive that it is crux of the problem.  

As far as management of a dog who may bite it involves common sense and simple rule: If you ask yourself : Is this OK ? The answer is always NO! And you need to ask this as often as possible. Project your actions into future and always assume worst case scenario. Can this dog a harm if I allow this or that? If yes or maybe is the answer then do not do it. I know that this seems stupid to even mention but it is not. Remember if the dog bites someone it your fault and o the dog's!!!

Hans, the sedative and muzzle were used only so the vet could safely handle the dog for routine things like vaccinations. It is not an every day thing. I agree, drugging a dog to control its behaviour is a horrible thing. Canines do NOT need Prozac or tranquilizers - they need TRAINING!!

Management: in the 22 months of her life this far ...no incidents.

I repeatedly say that I take this dog practically everyday for off leash ball exercising, which she does with her heart's content.
Why is everyone so uptight?

Mithuna u really need to go back and read other threads where u clearly made comments about your dog then u will understand why people are uptight your word by the way .you cant contradict now

I remember something about a man on the beach with a guitar case? Sound familiar?

Mith - no matter how careful you are, you cannot control ALL variables in your / your dog's interactions with the outside world/public. Not a matter of IF but WHEN your dog will cause harm, and in the litigious society of the big city you may lose all you have worked for and your dog may be killed. Sound melodramatic and scary? I hope so, because you seem to be deaf when people warn you.

Managing a problem with a dog does NOT make it go away. One of these days your management is going to fail and you are going to find yourself in a s***load of trouble!

Edit: Koots and I cross-posted, and said exactly the same thing. Except I didn't add the part about you seeming to be deaf to our warnings...but I'll add it now!!

Sunsilver - been there done that. The unfortunate thing is when a GSD, pit bull, chow or any other breed bites someone the whole breed and owners suffer when cities, towns and villages ban those dogs. And the scary part is this whole thread and the others before it will show anyone who investigates if this dog ever does bite someone and these posts lay that out for a nice fat lawsuit by the injured party. I would never in a million years put stuff like this on the net. Never.