Difference between.... - Page 7

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What some of you folks are ascribing to “Nerves” or “Nervy” is actually better attributed to thresholds.

This is more apparent when you spend time around a variety of Breeds.

Different Breeds have different temperaments and jobs. The way they react to people, other animals or the environment varies greatly.

For example, I know a Great Pyrenees that is a super solid “Nerved” dog. This dog is darn near fearless. No concern or fear of people, fireworks, other animals, thunder, gunfire, terrain or anything else we've come across. There are some things he will try to avoid like nail trimming or cats, but he's not afraid of either one.

At the same time, this Great Pyrenees will alert on the most insignificant of things. Drop a spoon on the counter and he'll light up as if Aliens were invading. Some child yells a block away and the dog will snort & stare off into the distance trying to make it his business.

The dog's quick responses to mundane things has nothing to do with his “Nerves”. He's not worried or concerned. He simply has an extremely low threshold for noises, smells or anything else that cause a disturbance in his environment.

This same dog has an extremely high threshold for actually engaging a threat. This isn't because of his strong “Nerves”. He's actually able to recognize a threat; however he'll posture, sidestep or even submit rather than engage. You have to push him wayyyyyy past the point (or threshold) where a good GSD would engage.

Some dogs are fearful/suspicious or “Nervy”. Don't confuse this with simply having different thresholds.

It's probably better to simply discuss what is the appropriate temperament for a particular breed. The Great Pyrenees' temperament should be measured against the job of flock guardian. A GSD's temperament should be measured against the job of a multipurpose utility dog. IMO, that means very strong “Nerves” but a Medium threshold for alerting and a Medium threshold for acting on that alert.

Reacting too quickly or too slowly might be a fear/suspicion/nerve issue. However, undesirable reactions could simply be a result of breeding in the wrong threshold levels. I think you must examine the entire spectrum of the dogs temperament and behavior before deciding.

I was recently speaking with a well known trainer & High level competitor about this exact subject. He stated that he personally likes a little 'nerve' in his dog. Then he went on to share a story about a conversation he had with a GSD breeder who stated that they breed for 'even temperament and prey drive' his response was "Aren't you describing a yellow lab?"

Sorry, but a dog that lights up at a spoon but won't engage a real threat is nervy IMO. It's definitely a nervy response when a dog lights up at a non-threat. Nerves are probably best tested outside of a training/on field situation, where as thresholds are better tested on the field.

I think you've just been taught the terms a different way and choose to keep going with the way someone explained them to you at some point. I believe I covered this type of thing in one of my last posts about how we generally say the terms that some "mentor" or teacher has told us at some point. But in this case, with your examples, I've never heard of the terms used in that way. The only time I could see it being spun that way is to make the owner of the nervy dog feel better about what they actually have. "Oh, your dog isn't nervy...it just has a low threshold." Knowing full well that the owner has no idea what those terms really mean...

While not wishing to be pedantic, the term "sharp" IS well
used within the dog world - and particularly the working
dog world - here in the UK. And consistently used to denote
those dogs which have too little control over their aggressive
tendencies. In other words, those dogs which (most people of
'common sense' would seem to regard) do not have sufficient
strength of nerve / courage.

Having once owned such a sharp dog, and having been told
in no uncertain terms that she should NOT be encouraged
in bitework, of any description, (an assessment with which I
readily agreed BTW), I am forced to the conclusion that we
in the UK, and possibly wider Europe, as evidenced by many
posts above, are in nothing like the confusion over terms that
our American cousins would appear to be. And all this before
even considering 'drives' as part of the picture.

quote- "Then he went on to share a story about a conversation he had with a GSD breeder who stated that they breed for 'even temperament and prey drive' his response was "Aren't you describing a yellow lab?""

Breeds have different temperaments. There are Breeds with very similar temperaments and Breeds with very different temperaments.

An 'even tempered' Yellow Lab could not/would not/should not be capable of PP or Patrol work at even a minimally acceptable level. An 'even tempered' GSD most definitely should be expected to be bitework capable.

@ hundmutter-
"Sharp" used to have a different meaning from what you describe. Perhaps it still does in some parts of the world. The them Sharp as it was originally used was a desirable trait.

@adhahn - where ???

Yogidog I agree with you. Good post and good description of people and dog that they can handle today. You basically are describing what I call type 1 one dog.

 However I would like to point out,  that dogs which I call Type 2 dogs can be trained to protect and bite effectively. Heck most LE and  PP dogs today are  Type 2 and need to be actually trained to bite. You have said correctly that dog which you described and I call Type 1 can not be handled correctly by most people. I, same as you, like type 1 dogs but since they are just too tough for most people, most dogs in today's society are Type 2 and need to be trained to bite on command . I assure you that well trained Type 2 dog if of sound mind can be very effective protector and LE dog and generally speaking is lesser liability but only because such dog can be handheld by less experienced handlers safely.

 take care.

Prager Hans 

@ BW-

I suspect you are not taking into account the big picture of dog Temperament. Plenty of domestic dogs will lie down and submit to a human rather than engage. It's not necessarily poor nerves that prevent them from engaging, some dogs are not supposed to fight people, it's not part of their (correct) breed temperament.

Perhaps you would understand better if we compared a Fighting Breed to a Hound. A dog bred for fighting will be expected to fight just because he's put with another dog. A dog bred to hunt in cooperation with other dogs would be expected to have a much higher tolerance for being around other dogs. The 'nerves' in either case could be totally irrelevant. The different thresholds bred into the dogs are a more decisive factor.