Corrections in Public - Page 5

Kind of funny that Cesar Milan's book is advertised on this website.  Which means that the website is brought to you by, "Cesar Milan".

"If you still have any legitimate questions after reading these threads I will try to answer them."

You, sir, have a great deal of tolerance.

On a side note, where did this ridiculous notion about whether or not a dog is allowed to get in the bed being a determining factor in your relationship originate?

Um, Jeffs, Ceasar Millan does not train dogs to feel they can vanquish any human opponent, that is what a good protection dog believes.  Also, the kinds of dogs many of us have are at the same time, highly dominant, if not that, very confident, (difference there) and yet are under our control, hopefully even when it is just our verbal control.  Still, many of us can have our dog platz, I even train my dog "night night" (okay, don't laugh, I am a girl) to mean lay on your side (convenient when needing to examine the dog's stomach, feet, etc.).  My dog's also sleep with me, but they do NOT show aggression to me EVER nor are they permitted to show it to each other, even while (especially while) eating, but I guarantee you if I just tried to throw my dog down while it is charged up and ready to fight I might just get bitten.  I guarantee that anyone else who tried that on my dogs WOULD get bitten.  

You are playing with fire to zap your dog when it is in an aggressive mode...good thing he is not about 100 pounds like my 3.  If he bites you when moving him, if he thinks you caused the zap, he is going to bite you then too.  An e-collar is a useful tool for honing behavior in the hands of a very experienced trainer only.  

Keith, I'm trying to be tolerant but it is not always easy as you know.

Jeffs,

We are not the ones that aren't getting it.  But, it seems from your recent posts you are getting closer to understanding. 

Since you mention Cesar Milan, his approach would actually benefit you in your situation.  A nylon slip collar will solve your dog aggression problem.  This is one technique that he does that will work for you.  Unlike a prong or ecollar it will not escalate the aggression as you have found out the prong collar can.  This is what I have tried to convey to you from the start of this post.  There are several things that Cesar does that I agree with and can work well.   The other thing you need to do is to learn to read your dogs body language.  You need to start correcting your dog the instant he thinks about becoming aggressive.  You need to correct at the first sign, i.e. tensing of a shoulder, going up on the toes, body posture forward, etc.  There is always a sign before the dog goes off and into a rage.  That is the time to correct the dog, after you miss that opportunity it gets worse quickly. 

If you want specific advice here you go:  the time to correct is when the dog thinks about becoming aggressive, not when the dog is already in a rage.  You must learn to read the dog's body language and master the skill.  You almost need to preemptively correct the dog before the outward signs of the behavior starts, when the dog first thinks about it.  When you correct it needs to be timed perfectly and you must remain completely calm.  If you had a nylon slip collar and simply lifted up on the leash while telling your dog to sit your problems would be solved.  The problems you raised are the out of control dog and the public perception of your harsh correction and the redirected aggression.   

If you want more detailed advice on using the nylon slip collar in this situation PM me.  I'm not going into details on how to do that on this forum.  Sorry, Stray Pixels........PM's only regarding this. 


 

Jim, as always you give very good advice.

When giving a dog correction, timing is EVERYTHING. Yes, you must catch that first tensing up of the dog, the sudden fixation on whatever is approaching it.

That's why I think the advice your trainer gave about taking the dog out of sight to correct is sucks so much. Maybe you can recreate the situation that caused the dog to go off, but in the meantime, it's gotten away with the same behaviour without any consequences, and you're going to have one very confused dog. Give the correction at the time it's needed, and to heck with what people think. However, a painful correction IS going to put your dog into fight mode. As Jim explained, that's what is bred into this dog's nature.

I have a trainer, thank you very much.  And tolerance goes both ways.

Learning the signs before aggression is extremely important.  Sometimes, though, the aggression has to be displayed before 1) you know to look for the subtle signs and 2) you know you have to look for the signs.  If I've done something 100 times with the dog acting aggressively, I think it's normal not to look for signs on the 101st time.

Yes, from that instance, I learned some things about my dog.  Christ, that's the fun of training a dog - learning about the dog, learning how to communicate with him and learning how to read him. 

It's kind of like salt in your diet.  It's not a problem unless it's a problem. 

And regarding correcting aggression, yes, it is better to correct before the aggressive act occurs.  The sooner the correction occurs in the build up, the less severe correction that is needed.  If I see my dog starting to show signs of confrontation, yes, the earlier I correct the behavior the better.  If he's starting to puff himself up and prick his ears and hold his head up when he sees a dog coming, then I try to deal with it by getting his attention and then rearding them for not acting aggressively.

And I've learned that if he isn't responding to me calling his name and is starting to fixate, a little correction usually snaps him out of it.  And if I wait until it's too late, then a little correction can cause him to escalate, which means I have to escalate.

It's a learning process. Do I make mistakes (and I guess I'm the only person who makes mistakes with their dog)? Yes.  And unfortunately, my dog often pays the price for my mistakes and sometimes it's my other dog that pays the price.  Such as life.  They've both survived so far and the aggressive one is getting better.  We've gone from him attacking my other dog about once every week, to once in a blue moon and usually it was caused by something I've done.

Just curious, but have none of the regulars ever been bit by a dog before?
 

Yes, but never my OWN dog! That should not happen, once the dog has accepted you as the alpha. And you have encouraged this dog to be the alpha, which was not a good thing to do.

Yes, I have been bit several times. By one of my own dogs that was dog and handler aggressive. I work Police dogs and have been bitten by a few of the dogs in our unit without equipment. I have decoyed for years and been bitten in the side, back and shoulder because of handler mistakes. I have plenty of scars from dog bites. It is really not a bIg deal to get bitten by a dog, it is not going to kill you. Normally, I finIsh the training set, get a bandage and keep on training. I never stop training because of a "real" bite. You keep working and someone gets the first aid kit. What does that have to do with anything?

Yes I have been bitten by several training dogs. As Jim, stated I got the first aid kit and bandaged up and then continued training.

So far to this day I have never been bitten by my own dogs because they were being "aggressive" to me. I have had them miss the tug toy and nail me, but that was my mistake. They in no way were "being aggressive" to me.