Dog aggression - Page 5

Two Moons,

Fear is no substitute for respect.

Is it not fear that makes the dog respect us? My dog does not chase the chickens because he knows I will hurt him if he does so. If you disagree, please tell exactly how one elicits respect. "Obedience" and "socialization" are rather broad spectrumed rhetoric. Please be more specific with technique.

A dog never forgets fear, or what created that fear, ever.

Incorrect. If the (in this case negative)reinforcer is diminished or withdrawn, the behavior will re-emerge. 

Fear can be transferred by the dog to other things and yes get in the way of natural drives.

Perhaps, but that would be indicative of an unsound temperament. Correctly temperamented dogs are very situational, which allows us to train a variety of exercizes in a variety of ways, including using positive punishment.

I have personally seen dogs ruined by beatings, that's what I call kicking a dog in the ass, and yes I have seen dogs ruined from shock devices used improperly.

I disagree that a boot in the ass constitutes a beating. Let us limit discussion to properly applied technique, shall we? A Henney Penney outlook stifles initiative.

If corrections are necessary they must be made correctly, at the correct time, and in the correct place (situation) to be effective.

Since my dog no longer chases chickens, would that not indicate that the correction was effective?

Ask any real trainer, don't take my word for it, it's not rocket science.

I am not asking any real trainer. I am asking you. It may not be rocket science, but it is science. Behavioral science.

Re: FEAR and RESPECT 

There is no respect without some fear. What one is fearful of, can be different. For example, one can respect one's parents because one fears to lose their approval. A dog can respect their handler because they fear the boot in the ass. 

Right on Beetree.

To some,
It is clear your concept of fear and respect differ from my own and every other animal on this earth.
The prey fears its predator, yet animals can also respect each others territories and their place in the pecking order.
Respect comes from knowing.

If an animal were to forget as you say how could it survive?
This is so obvious in the entire animal kingdom.

Instinct is not all genetic, lessons are learned and passed on from generation to generation.
Instinct is the combined learning from all who came before.
Knowing.

Humans who are supposed to be so intelligent seem to lack common sense and understanding, this too is so obvious.
This is because of how we learn.  What is the stronger lesson, opinion or experience?  Fear or knowing?

  There is a great difference between a physical correction and a beating, ask any child.
A child doesn't fear loss of approval, the child learns cause and effect, key word learn, not fear, knowing.

It is natural for humans to fear everything because we fear our own species, other animals do not share this problem.
That's where we differ on the meaning of fear.

Opinion yes, to those who do not see, formed not by experience but the opinions of others.

Jeff you appear full of shit because of how you communicate your opinion.
I will agree that fear is a useful tool but it has many limitations, knowledge on the other hand is limitless.

A good kick in the ass teaches but what is learned is unpredictable and not always reliable.
I base what I know on experience, not opinion.

And what I know is if this dog is properly socialized and obedient to its master this problem can be resolved without the kick in the ass.

Moons.

That's a way of making it work for you, Moons if your vague salutation was blowing my way." Knowing" what, what to fear, yes? The difference between a wanted or unwanted consequence, of course! And it is the fear of losing something desirable or gaining something undesirable that drives home the difference, and therefore knowing whom or what to respect. 

There is no such thing as learned instinct.

I think he is confusing what is innate or instinctual vs. tribal knowledge passed on from generations, and that includes the elephants and whales. Ever watch that show, Pregnant and Didn't Nnow It? * (or something like that)  Without preparation and mentoring the lack of skill is astounding.

Quote: 

The prey fears its predator, yet animals can also respect each others territories and their place in the pecking order. Respect comes from knowing.

Animals do not respect other territories unless they fear the repercussions that come from invading them. The respect pack order, because the higher ups will hurt them. 

Always the threads on here turn Bitchy, We can never have a thread which starts okay and ends the same way,
The OP has NOT had the Dog long enough for it to Respect her or really take notice of her, The Dog is simply looking to her for guidance and to know where it stands, It is at the time insecure and needing the OP to show it what is right and what is not,
Only time can create a real bond and that word Bond is really Respect for it is guaranteed that if a Dog does not Respect the handler then that partnership is doomed
To get Respect from a Dog does not just mean that the Dog has to love you, they can do that and not respect you, When it comes down to respect it does contain a certain amount of fear from the dog to the Handler.
Not in a nasty way or a fearful way it is that little bit of fear that creates the respect for the Handler, If the Dog does in no way have any fear of the Handler then it can and will bite when and if the occasion arises. On the other hand Respect of the Dog must be earned by the Handler meaning that treatment of the dog must be fair and tough when needed, If one gives a correction to a dog and that Dog obeys then the handler must instantly praise the Dog for doing it, It is not a one way ticket it requires Trust and Respect from the Handler as well.
We can go on but the meaning is there some may not agree but what works right you do not change or mess with
Steve1