Something Other Than Forced Retrieve - Page 4

Pete, really wish I could take the credit, but can't. That is Louise Jollyman. She posted above. Her young dog Apollo really looks super.

You don't have to pinch an ear for it to be a forced retrieve. A collar twist, using an e-collar, it's all basically the same technique. Force breaking has been given a bad rap, because people don't know how to use compulsion to train and they screw it up. It's nearly impossible to teach in writing and needs to be shown. It's not for novice trainers to use, as it requires good timing and reading the dog well.

For those of you that are adverse to it, you don't just not understand it, you've never seen it taught properly and have never see the results.

A dog taught properly still has his drive, the pickups are quick, the return to the handler is sharp and the dog never refuses to go out and get the dummbell.

Shady Lady,
Not sure if you are talking to me. But If so...
I have said that "forced retrieves" can be taught many ways, and just gave some examples. Certainly did not include them all. I also said they DO work, and often quite well.

I have seen some top trainers, (and some "normal" people who do very well in scoring) teach forced retrieves. I have seen dogs turn blue, urinate and defecate on themselves, and bleed. These dogs recovered and looked beautiful on trial day, whether field trials or schutzhund trials, or even AKC.

So to say that people that are "adverse to it... you don't just not understand it, you've never seen it taught properly and have never see the results." is wrong in my case. I am averse to it, because I have seen incidents that made me vomit. Can't speak to others.

---Mary

 

I would make this suggestion: if this is your first dog, go ahead and do a clicker retrieve, it will improve your timing and observational skills, be patient and you will both have fun.

The nice thing about the clicker retrieve is you can try it yourself at home, using several of the resources on the web or in books. 

Years ago, when I said I would do the clicker retrieve with Bodeus, my TD said, no way I'll believe that method is any good until you can pick the dog up off the ground with the dumbell - so off I went to prove it.  Bodeus had nice food drive, and I was able to click for pressure on the dumbell until I could pick him up with it.  Like I said he got solid SG retrieves at trials.  I didn't want a force retrieve on Bodeus because I also did AKC obedience and was worried that it would be difficult to teach the scent discrimination later.

You can always add force to a clicker retrieve later if you choose to, but at that point, you will need the help of someone who knows what they are doing.

All our current dogs are taught a clicker retrieve first, then we add low levels of electric, so they end up having some force in the retrieves but without doing the full "force retrieve".

Lou

- Louise Jollyman -
'It's Bode, he's famous!'
http://www.bodeus.com
http://www.brimwylf.com
http://www.schutzhund-training.com

@leeshideaway - I don't know if that retrieve you posted has been a "traditional force retrieve", what I can tell you though, is the dog believes it was forced, you can tell by the ear and tail set.  The dog is stressed. 

You can see the same difference between the "almost there" "no-force" clicker retrieve of my Belladonna, note her ears and tail are up, and she is not going with much intensity -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdObVkHe_Ww

And Apollo's clicker based retrieve with electric on top - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBRLXBwVfHA - look at 3:15 mins in, you can see he shows a little avoidance in the basic, his ears are at half mast, tail low, and much more purpose.  It was still SG, because he took time to pick up the dumbell, but his next trial all three retrieves were Vs.

I can continue to tighten Belladonna's clicker retrieve to make it faster and more direct, I believe I could get her to SG just like Bodeus, but I choose to put a bit more oomph with electric.

Lou

Mary,

My post was general and not directed at anyone in particular.

Any training can be abused and I've seen my share of people abusing animals. It's all sickening, but saying that you are adverse to it because you've seen it abused could hold true for any training, as
it all has been abused on one level or another. Your line of why you don't like the forced retrieve still seem to be for the exact reasons I wrote.

I'm not advocating force breaking the retrieve and wouldn't recommend it to anyone that couldn't be taught it correctly in person who wasn't well versed in timing and reading a dog.
However, I'm not going to shun a good training tool, just because idiots don't know how to use it. My point is that if you don't like it, don't use it, but don't bash something that you are ignorant about.

Do people dislike table training in bitework or the use of electric collars because they have seen these abused too? Sure they do, but how can this make any sense for the basis of an
opnion to not like the technique?

Force breaking is just not using the ear pinch. People use a collar twist or an electric collar, etc.  It's still the same thing - you are using force to shape behavior.

I don't think anyone here is bashing the forced retrieve, the OP was asking for methods other than force.

I know when I started in the sport, I felt that the force retrieve was too much for me, which is why I started with Shirley Chong's retrieve and made a few changes for my purposes. 

You know the training tool you can do the most damage with - your foot!!!

Still it doesn't hurt to discuss alternatives, at the end of the day let everyone choose what they are comfortable with, I think that's what we have all been saying.

Lou

I would say that in most cases, the tool that most people abuse,,,,,,is their mind.

Two tugs, polished game, speeds it up. Then not well weighted stick so they have to hold it tight. And friend of mine told me about carying two tugs and later a tug and a dumbell....

thanks Dude!

Lou,

You need to go back and read the thread. There were posts that were written out of arrogant ignorance. I avoided this post for a while, as I figured that's what it would turn into.

Absolutley, everyone should train how they want. I would suggest nothing else, but not everyone has been saying that.