Bitework Question: How should trainer progress. - Page 30

It's just entertaining at this point...OP is the epitome of purchasing a dog from a less than reputable breeder, getting suckered in by stories that can't be collaborated or proven but sound great, and then once they realize it, they start reaching for any sign of decent dog breeding in the pedigree to make themselves feel better about their purchase. Not sure why people do that, enjoy your dog, work and train the dog you have. Want to convince people you have a quality dog? Go out there and show it. Not a single person worth anything in the working/sport world could care less what line breedings are 11 generations back in a pedigree.

BW said: "Want to convince people you have a quality dog? Go out there and show it."

THIS.

I would like to say that  Ingo v Rudingen who has Ex v Riedstern in his past is strongly influencing Jiri's and subsequently my  breeding program. That is why I am so familiar with  Ex and that is why I mentioned it since from the looks to me it was highly probable that Mithuna's dog has these lines in her. That then influences or if trained  correctly it should influence the way the dog is trained and handled and THAT  directly goes to the question in OP:
1.How should bite work be developed with this dog?

The training of a dog should be designed aroung the dog;s temperament. 

I know that some can not get over the hump that Ex was around  many generations  ago and thus can not influence a dog in today dogs. Well  my opinion it that dogs are influenced by all dogs from their past and if such dogs like Ex had dominant genes then of course those genes will show up in today dogs. I mean what other genes should show up? There is nothing else there in the background of each dogs . Thus  something has to shows up. Like when 2 recessives genes meet  ,   or   the dominant genes of the dog's of the past penetrates into present dogs phenotype.  But that goes with the theory and practice of male blood lines which also some disagree with yet all z Ps program was based on it.  Speaking of male blood lines. If I understand this right and Anna Vom Haus Landry is the female here being discussed then I see that   she does not just   has Ex prominently in her pedigree but on top of it she had been bred in sire's and dam's side  in 2nd male blood line.   Here is how the 2nd line is characterized as usually :

 often sable, hard, in PP high anger level, great trackers, dominant thus lesser obedience. The dog is not sable because tremendous dominance of Ex overrides that aspect but the temperament of Ex even   perfectly matches the 2nd line temperament characteristics even though he him self is 5th line.   That is how  you refresh the gene pool of the line by adding same type of a dog in from different line. But that is another story. 

 What I see here, based on pedigree is, that the dog  will have specific temperament characteristics. That likelihood is to me confirmed by the Mithuna's description of the dog. 

 

  

 

I hope folowing text  will not get deleted even though  it is out of topic but it is about one of my posts on this thread which I would like to clarify  and was asked about.  

Susie: he broadened the gene pool, but you are still able to find "pre" Jiri dogs in a lot of pedigrees, they are not gone.

Hans: True. But he have done much more then just broaden the gene pool which could have been done haphazrdly. He organized these dogs into a system previously not used. Of course there are pre Jiri dogs he did not create the breed nor kill off all the dogs of zPs after he got there. However he got rid of the studs and created new breeding approach whose  results we see  today. There were well over thousand dogs  in the program. Thus yes I have misspoke when I have said:" None of these dogs  are in the z Pohranicni straze lines as we know them today. Those current lines were solely created by Jiri Novotny."  I should have obviously say :" None of these dogs  LINES are in the z Pohranicni straze lines as we know them today. Those current lines were solely created by Jiri Novotny."

 Thus those current lines were solely created by Jiri Novotny.  What I was trying to say is that these dogs would  not resulted in the z Ps dogs as we know them today if it would not be for Jiri's 20 years of work and reorganization of the breeding using system which  then  resulted in dogs as we know then today. As I have said he organized formerly fragmented breeding program and scratched CVs 100% and started breeding based on the 4 male lines and mainly used as studs the 7 DDR dogs which were foundation of the program and some other  studs which were not part of the original z Ps program.

He retained some breeding females whose  male lines included the former dogs from z Ps.  Thus yes the former z Ps dogs were and are in the breeding in his program. But so what? The program was in shambles and disorganized and he created what we have today not because of the dogs from past but because how he used them and organized them. If he would not do that, we would not have the type of dogs we have from these lines today. 

That is why I am saying that he created z Ps dogs line as we know them today. So I hope that answers your question.

 

Also there are some suggesting that I am "riding coat tails" of Jiri. The truth of the matter is that Jiri would not start his private breeding program as he has had done and eventually retired from military at the time he have, if I would not introduced these dogs to US where they got exceedingly popular and in demand.  That tremendous demand saved these dogs. Because without such demand created by me here in USA   Jiri would not start privately breed the dogs for me on the scale as he was doing which then eventually saved theses lines  when the communism went away and dogs in the breeding program z Ps were put down or send home with the handlers. The parallel breeding was then in place and the lines were saved. 

No Hans. It doesn't imply you are riding Jiris coat tails. What it does say is don't tell me what Jiri accomplished. Tell what you accomplish. And without those dogs that Jiri had access to, you wouldn't of had anything to sell in the first place. Seems I remember reading or hearing about how Jiri got in some trouble because he was breeding those border patrols dogs into his private breeding program?

Hans...you're not basing it on the pedigree at all. You're basing it on ONE dog 11 generations back. You're completely ignoring everything else in the pedigree. That's the crazy part about doing that sort of pedigree analysis. You have no idea if the parents were like that, the grandparents, and any other dog on their way down to Ex. The only thing you can say is that Mithuna's dog is similar to what you've heard about Ex. You bring up dominant and recessive genes in order to cover literally EVERYTHING possible. If none of the closer relatives presented those traits, it must be the recessive showing up due to the line breeding, if the relatives did present those traits, it must be that the genes are that dominant that they've continued on throughout all of the progeny and have now ended up in the dog in question.

This type of analysis is no way to give someone any ideas on how their dog should be worked. The dog in front of the helper is all that matters.

BV
I counted EX 41 times , got tired and did not complete the whole ped.
In your post you made an assumption of Ex presence saying it was 10 times.

41 times out of how many ancestors? Percentage?
I made this arithmetical a couple of weeks ago, Bav made it, too.

01. generation 50/50 ( sire/dam)
02. generation 25/25/25/25 ( 4 grandparents )
03. generation 12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5 ( 8 great grand parents )
04. generation 6.25 x 16 ( I am lazy, and there is not enough space, sorry - 16 great great grand parents )
05. generation 3.125 x 32
06. generation 1.5625 x 64
07. generation 0.78125 x 128
08. generation 0.390625 x 256
09. generation 0.1953125 x 512
10. generation 0.0976562 x 1.024
11. generation 0.0488281 x 2.048
12. generation 0.024414 x 4.096
13. generation 0.012207 x 8.192
14. generation 0.0061035 x 16.384
15. generation 0.0030517 x 32.768
16. generation 0.0015258 x 65.536
17. generation 0.0007629 x 131.072
18. generation 0.0003814 x 262.144
19. generation 0.0001907 x 524.288
20. generation 0.0000953 x 1.048.576
21. generation 0.0000476 x 2.097.152
22. generation 0.0000238 x 4.194.304
23. generation 0.0000119 x 8.388.608
24. generation 0.0000059 x 16.777.216
25. generation 0.0000029 x 33.554.432

Any living being is the result of ALL its ancestors, and the closer the ancestors ( sire/dam ) the more influential they are.

What is the percentage of chance of getting to see the training video ?