Watered Down sport?? - Page 3

So discuss what at a club level makes today's sport any easier than it was 30 years ago...which parts of the routine/trial/judging are easier? I'd love some video proof as well but it's probably impossible to come by as back then I'm sure very few people actually recorded club trials as much as they do today.

I'm not knocking focused heeling that is necessary for high points or podium. Just be mindful of its value, that's all. I think IPO really demonstrates high end training for competition. I don't see why that is offensive, it is what it is, which shouldn't be offensive unless you think it is the be all for the breed. It's different from Sch of past as Gunther explained but perfect for competition. Simple!

I can't speak to 30 yrs ago, as it's only been about 9 yrs since I titled a dog. But there have been changes in requirements. If you compare the schH rule book from ten years ago with the IPO rules, its right there in front of you. No need to take any one's word nor view a clip to try rto see a difference. Especially since vid performance of a particular dog won't tell what the exact performance the judges looks for.

Even between judges there is a difference in requirements. One trial a judge will instruct or want one thing, when the next judge at another trial will instruct or want something different. For example tracking...the judge faulted my female for going fast on the track, even tho she hit each corner and indicated all articles. The next judge never mentioned her speed but commented on the quality of her tracking. 

But there have been changes in requirements. If you compare the schH rule book from ten years ago with the IPO rules, its right there in front of you.

That's what i am looking for  I really have tried to find the rules and 'patterns' of Schutzhund of Old vs IPO today. We all know the differences coming between IPO vs IGO and how the new requirements that Susie pointed out are easier versions of IPO. Does anyone have an OLD ShcH rule book or remember anything that is different? I had heard that back in the days of old, there was an attack out of the blind vs the dog doing a blind search and then performing a bark and hold but i dont know at what level (SchH 1-3) the attack was. I am only assuming it looked similar to what is done during the Breed Survey at shows

You have to look very far back to find something that became "easier" -

1. the wall became an A-frame
2. the bamboo stick became a covered stick...

When I trained my first dog there already was the A-frame ( that´s almost 40 years ago, the "wall" still existed on our training field, but only for fun ),
I don´t remember when the bamboo stick was forbidden ( some years later ),

( only for the record - wall and bamboo stick caused a lot of major injuries, for the sake of the dogs I am glad both were forbidden )
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but everything else became much more difficult...

It´s mostly about "precision" and "perfection", a top dog from the eighties, even from the nineties would have no chance today ( not necessarily because of its genetic abilities, but because of different training ).

When I started in dogsport / DVG at that time ( and I am talking about local trials now ) nobody really cared about "guarding", "out", "grip", or "barking at the blind".
Retrieving the blinds? Why?
Barking? My dog will bite! When biting it won´t leave the helper.
Entering the field off leash for bitework? Heck, no! My dog wouldn´t listen to me...
Guarding? My dog may stay at the helper, even in case I have to yell "down" several times...
Tracking? Going forward, the nose in the wind, supersized articles, visible for almost blind dogs...
Entering the trial field off leash for obedience? Am I crazy?
Obedience at all? A lot of "on leash", afterwards, in case my dog doesn´t listen, I´ll grab the collar.
Down stay? Okay, my dog will do so in case nothing else happens...
"Steh" ? Not before SchH3
Heeling? Yes, we sometimes meet each other
And so on...

The "heel work" ? Changed from regular heeling to "wrapping around the handler" to "head in the air" - that´s only different training, momentary taste, not more, not less, no dog will fail because of "regular heeling".

The requirements increased year after year - the current situation: the IPO1 asks for more perfection as the former SchH2 ( eighties ). That´s a fact for local trials, and it´s a fact for National trials.

A sidenote:
Momma, I don´t know what you are talking about in case of "working versus show lines" - within SV EVERY dog has to go through the same requirements, there is no formal difference, never has been -

and in case there is a judge not judging according to the rules file a complaint, or openly make use of a video camera during the trial ...

There was an attack out of the blind. But I'm sure SV got rid of it because with the dogs of today, it's not much of a challenge.

Gustav, "SV" is not able to get rid of anything without the other clubs involved...

The former "attack" is still part of the breed survey in SV ( EVERY dog has to breed survey prior to breeding ; SV is not able to to influence IPO rules that much, but the former SchH "attack" survived at least ( and exclusively ) in "our" SV club rules, funny, isn´t it?

Isn't the execution of the 'out of motion' exersises different now ? Instead of the handler giving the command for 'sit' without a change in stride ( no pause to wait for dog to sit) , doesn't the handler now have to stop, give the command, then resume walking after the dog sits?

Also, the BH used to have gun fire, then it was taken out ?

The small pause in the out of motion exercises is only in the BH. The gunfire was taken out of the BH because the BH became the temperament test for ALL DOG SPORT in Germany so even other breeds doing sports that have nothing to do with gun sureness had to get a BH. Changes to the BH also make no difference to the IPO routine…the exercises still have to be done the same way there. On top of that, most people that plan on doing an IPO1 will just train a regular sit/down out of motion without pausing. Truthfully, if that’s the only thing that we can point to as making IPO easier than it was 20 years ago…we’re really pulling teeth.

Joanro, in "former times" ( 30/40 years back ) nobody really awaited the dog to "out", still a pass, in case the dog showed any signs of out, no matter a pause or not. Much more difficult today.

About the BH, I handled a BH dog in 1979, no gunshots as far as I remember ( getting old ), but honestly, it doesn´t matter - for a German bred / handled dog the BH only is a minor step on the way to IPO1 ( formerly SchH1 ), without IPO1 ( including gunshots ) followed by the breed survey ( including gun shots ) no breeding.
You have to look at the ( still current ) whole picture, not at one part of several - you need all of them...