Just another Sport Dog - Page 26

Isn't it nice how genetics works?

Centurian

if we simplifie things there is preybite and civil(protection/agression) bite, and per defenition prey/posession bite is full/calm and civil bite not.

however there are many colours between black and white, meaning not all dogs are prey only or agression only, so there is many variables.

I said before, character of a dog is like a pizza, all pizza hawai have mostly same ingredients on it, but the amounts of each ingredient on each individual pizza is different.

now we can take prey,civil,hardness, possesivness, endurance,dominance etc as the ingredients of a dog, and say the same,, general buildup is same, but each individual is slightly different by make up

now we can pick one type of mixture and say that it is ideal for what we want, be it sport or LE, but we can also use the dogs that are close to that ideal mixture a bit to the left or a bit to the right

now, back to the grip, for LE work me and most of my clients want a dog that is not overly prey focussed, one that is willing to give up preyitem and re engage the person and these dogs dont allways have full calm grip, some do and some dont, all depends on the levels of different ingredients on each individual dog

in general I think it is fair to say the more we move away from prey towards agression, the more chance we  have that grip will become sloppy

is that a bad thing for LE, I dont think so, a dog locked in prey is easy to take out, we have seen football hooligans rolling up their jacket over their left arm catching the policedog and stabbing it with the knife in the other hand.

now I know there are LE trainers that want full calm grips,dogs staying in the fight etc, I can understand that, but have to say there are lots of dogs that can take more pressure when they are ON the bite locked in prey, but some of these dogs I test without being triggered in prey and they fail miserably,(have one on video,will look it up) so balance is the key word as allways, but full calm grips are not a must for LE

Also in sport IPO/KNPV we sometimes see powerfull dominant dogs that dont have calm grip because of their desire to regrip, get deeper bite and dominate, dont think that is bad either

 

Can t get my video to load

 

Gustav other than duke you are probably the only one that has delivered a dog to law enforcement in the padt six months . U are very funny and talk about center of her world 😉

Centurion One of the best post I have read long time ago BRAVO !!!!!

Here in KNPV we also learn dogs deep pushing grips, why let we say we have a agressive suspect on drugs
LSD what ever than you will need a dog with full powerfull pushing grip(who stay in the fight) that attaches on the suspect, Not a dog who bite half
and is pulling clothes from a arm or leg , than suspect can easy escape and believe me this happen..........

doing some decoy work for a 9 months old malinois in KNPV learning pushing grip on the leg: The technique is simple when the dog is pushing I reward the dog moving forward so te dog is pushing his grip again and repeat  it again......Not all dogs will do this dog must have some good genetics.....

https://vimeo.com/171997338

So if K9 brokers here saying I sell that dogs because my customers don,t care about crappy half grips, this said something about the quality from that broker and also the customer police/department just saying........ I,m not a world class decoy/ handler or train with world class top trainers  just my personal experience and vision.

 

Joan  that decoy don,t deserve 150 $$$  . I think your dog  have some skills, but a bad decoy can destroy dogs  easy.....I also understand  good decoys is not very easy to find in the US. But let I say when I don,t like the decoy my dog stay @ home I don,t gonna train with them.

I have found that both Centurian and Duke make good points. I like to see a good full bite from dog. But I also agree, that very often with many dogs as the genetic composition of " fight" increases, you start to see combative " hard" bites, that may not be so beautifully full, but are very very effective for dog against real assailant. I also much rather prefer a dog for LE that will readily release a full hard grip or a hard grip and target the man, than the dog on full hard grip that is reluctant to release that grip. When evaluating dogs you quickly can tell one from the other...that's not to say that a full grip isn't a good trait...it's to say that strong fight and willingness to readily target what is available on man is a valuable trait in LE and believe it or not there are some full grip dogs that it is almost impossible to teach this to.....but these dogs can be very high point dogs in sport. Doesn't demean the dog, just commenting on priorities for what some are looking for depending on what purpose of dog in training.
BW...I complimented your dog, and I know who you are and what your level of training and trialing is to this point. I find it great that young folks like you are learning the craft through training, competing, helper work, ...for the future of the breed is dependent, imo, on young folks continuing to work this breed. But, twenty years from now you will see some things differently as we all do....keep learning your craft!

is a gentlemen philosophical post. I differ as to what should be....

So , now I pose this : If you study and I mean really really study predatory animals .... cheetah , lion , tiger . I think that no one can doubt they work , as a dog should work , with the most efficient and proficient execution of a behavior . That also includes the behavior of biting. If you haven't aready , just study them .. [ BTW , this I utilized years ago in order to understand protection disciplines and philosophy in teaching my GS ] .They are not hectic , frantic , in using the most efficient bite, to kill and posssess. They don't use the front of the mouth , front teeth to bite when working most efficiently and proficiently [ both are different and matter !! ]. Perhaps it is not fair to compare a domesticated animal to a wild animal. But , contemplate what we learn from wild animals : isn't a full mouth bite BEST in ANY endeavor , I don't care LE , sport etc, that lends our dogs to be MOST proficient and efficient in reaching the end result. Does not the full bite allow the animal to capture the victim better , to control the victim better , to possess the victim better etc ? Duke , we both discuss frequently the role of genetics.. Now what you wrote in your last post , and I admire your post , does that boil down to genetics , teaching , both ?

Because when I see dogs NOT biting full , I say to myself .. something is wrong, this picture of an animal is wrong for what an animal by NATURE is. Have we made the dog through selective breeding , something , even for a domestic animal , something, that it ought not be [ a crappy biting animal ] ? In that case we better take a loohard look at our breeding programs. If you sat the bite is contingent upon the training .. well that speaks a lot about us and what we do with dogs too.

Personally , personally , relating back to my intitial post , If I do not see part of a program aiding the dog in homing all it's natural skills , including it's bite , then that teaching does not rate with me. Something is a miss and the animal in my mind has been failed by the teacher. But , I admit , that is just me , my personal view . To each their own and I hope readers , read this and start to think for thensleves. Same view I have , when I teach someone to fight. If I don't teach someone the correct mechanics of body use, hand use , arm use , torso use , footwork use , in order to throw 1 punch, that is just 1 punch , and take some one out in 1 punch , ,,, then shame on me . I feel the same way about teaching dogs .
That helper IMOp , as I wrote could have helped jo with nher GS , especially with that dog's potential , a lot more , even if he was simply demonstrated his experience . He made a lot , a lot of teaching mistakes interacting with the dog .

BlackMal forgot to thank you for your video , I also have owned Malinois for French Ring Sport. that seems to be a nice Mal and wouldn't want to get bitten by the Mal :-) !!!

You can't "make" full grips. You can certainly ruin grips but you can't make a dog, who genetically has a 3/4 grip to grip completely full.
I've got one dog with a genetically full and crushing grip, and another dog that grips grips just as hard but she's only got a 3/4 grip. Both dogs grip hard, one full, the other doesn't both calm. No matter how much training you put on that dog she will always revert back to the 3/4 grip.

Sure we help them live up to their best possible genetic make up but you didn't make that grip. That grip was always there.

centurion, if we go by your way of thinking, wild animals, we see the same as in dogs, we see very different type of biting when they catch a PREY, or when they are in territorial fight, you dont see full calm grips there,

but again, everybody can have own opinion