Handler aggression - Page 2

"He was born with the willingness to use his teeth to overcome human interference and I didn't want to ruin that ".
Well put Adha.
Many persons are quick to lay blame for dog aggression on owners not providing obedience; but these same persons cannot RATIONALLY explain why THOUSANDS of randomly owned dogs WITHOUT a single moment of obedience training have ZERO aggression. Obviously there is a second independent variable ( other than obedience training ), and that is the DOG'S GENETICS ( born with the willingness to use his teeth to overcome human......)

Two of my dogs are somewhat handler aggressive , one more than other , I don't give much correction until I feel like the dog is bit mature and can take punishment , I try not to correct but redirect .. look if you want a real hard dog whose gonna do what u wanted to do then you're gonna have to accept certain things , and handler aggression can be part of it. You're gonna get lots of people here claim they have man eating stone cold killers who do therapy work on weekends but that's a lie .. a real hard dog whose worth anything and has the potential to turn it on can't or shouldn't do anything But go from his kennel to be trained/excercised or back of a police cruiser and back in his kennel. People who claim they raised police dogs who give piggy back rides to kids have never actually had to use it in a real life situation and if they did they would most certainly be dissapointed. Can't mix both

Mithuna, what is your problem?
There are x different dogs because of x different hereditary traits, and it´s up to the handler to channalize these traits in favour to the handler and the handler´s goals.
In case your goal is a handler aggressive dog, not able to be part of at least parts of society, it´s your decision -
but in case you want to own a working dog ( working = working for you, not for itself ) you need to train the dog...
Kind of stupid discussion

Susie
My point was that people who argue that the aggression ( effect/dependent variable ) has its roots in lack of obedience ( independent variable ). My point was that thousands of dogs which lack obedience ( independent variable ) show no aggression ( 0 value dependent variable ). Common reasoning tells us that there must be other independent variables : viz The genetics of the dog.
Why should this point suggest that I have a problem?

In fact both effects ( 0 and non 0 value dependent variable ) can be easily explained if we take genetics to be the independent variable.

It's neither training nor genetics but primarily environment and trust.  If your dog has trust, respect and absolute confidence in you they will not bite you on purpose ( maybe by accident if you do something stupid ). If you have trust, respect, and absolute confidence in your dog you won't do anything that would make your dog need to bite you. None of the more than 60 dogs I have raised have ever bitten me in anger or aggression.  I have been bitten but never seriously due to doing stupid things on my part but it has never been the dog's fault nor has any of my dogs ever bitten me in anger or aggression.  

quote- "If your dog has trust, respect and absolute confidence in you they will not bite you on purpose ( maybe by accident if you do something stupid ). If you have trust, respect, and absolute confidence in your dog you won't do anything that would make your dog need to bite you."

I disagree. My personal observation is that some (perhaps all?) dogs have what we think of as emotions. I don't know if they are the true equivalent of human emotions, but dogs experience something like our emotions.

Dogs can be "happy"
Dogs can be "sad"
Dogs can be "jealous"
Dogs can be "angry"
etc, etc.

This is a bit anthropomorphic, but to compare with humans: you can trust and respect your spouse, boss, sibling, parent and so forth. In some cases you can trust them with life altering decisions including life and death ones. There are still going to be occasions when they make you angry. Fortunately you have better control of your emotions than a two year old toddler (or a dog).

Some dogs must be taught that it's unacceptable to throw temper tantrums and bite, just like some toddlers must be taught they cannot hit mommy with a toy when they don't get their way.

Trust, respect and confidence will of course make a huge difference in how difficult it is to teach the dog manners, but I believe some dogs must still be taught those manners.

I don't think trust, respect and confidence can guarantee there won't be any 'handler aggression' any more than they can guarantee the dog won't steal food off the counter.

Mit, your problem is, that you use possible genetic traits as an excuse for bad behavior.

Nobody who ever owned and trained dogs will tell you that an aggressive dog is the result of lack of obedience only.

Obedience and training has the goal to channelize, direct, and handle the temperament and drives of a dog.
The result should be a dog able to live with us without major problems, and in the best case we get a dog able to "work" for us.

The drives, character, and temperament of your dog are the most discussed traits of any dog on this board - but your resumee out of all these pages of suggestions and thoughts is :
" Many persons are quick to lay blame for dog aggression on owners not providing obedience; ..."

You will never get it - it´s not about the inborn traits - it´s about how you are able and willing to handle these traits,
and that´s called obedience, education, training...

Susie again you're wrong and speak only from experience working with show dogs and corgis who if you looked st them wrong will break down ,some dogs (working lines ) not common are assholes and all the obedience and socialization not gonna make a difference , just like people , doesn't mean they're bad dogs , just means they're not for everyone

Susie
I have corrected her many times and on one occasion on prong link even became twisted and bent. This has not stopped her from going crazy at the slightest stare or approach of anyone outside my family . Because I dont want to injure her I have stopped this kind of correcting.