RECALL PROBLEMS - Page 2

I agree with bzcz’s first post; you need to make this about the dog wanting to engage you.  I play two ball with all of my dogs but don’t think it will have the desired effect in this particular case.  First, if your ball isn’t on a rope, get one that is.  Then, when rewarding the dog during obedience, keep hold of the rope when you give him the ball and play tug with him.  When you let him win, make sure that you have control of his leash, draw him into you and have him out the ball.  I would not use a long line as you want all of the fun he’s having to always be where you are.  Switch things up.  Sometimes when you draw him back in, grab the rope and play tug some more then let him win again.  Keep doing this and keep it fun and before long, the dog will want to bring the ball back because without you, it’s just a ball.  The whip and the rest of that is unnecessary.  Don’t over-think this and don’t make it too complicated and it will come.

I agree with Keith if I didn't make that clear before.  No long line, obedience leash for this work.  Somewhere around 3 -4 ft long.
 

All of this advise will help me & I plan on going back to the basics. All on leash with his rope ball reward. I have this gut feeling that our bond needs to be tighter. I am sure that there are some good dogs out there that are just independent enough to make the handler question things however I just know that we will work hard towards having a better recall.

Yes, some dogs are that independent...I worked through exactly this same situation with my current dog.  Where are you located?

You have a lot of great responses from people on here. CLC29, bzcz, and Keith are giving you good advice.

The key here is that the dog, so far, gets more reward out of being away from you than being near you.

Don't throw the ball for him as a reward any longer. Always, as has been said, reward him with the ball attached to you, meaning you keeping the rope attached to the ball in your hand and then play tug with him.

Another thing I will add in here is that it is a lot easier to teach a dog a recall or anything in obedience by starting in a small space. I have done a lot of groundwork for obedience exercises, including my dumbell recall, in my bedroom between my bed and the wall. About 3-1/2 feet of space between the two. You can find other places to do this also. Your garage, basement, a kennel run, horse stall, etc all work. Start small and work out from there. This way you don't need a leash, or, if you do, not for long. Another thing that I suggest you try is buying Susan Garrett's DVD, Crate Games. The techniques in the DVD are an excellent tool for teaching the dog control and self motivation, and, a recall.

I don't think that a small space will benefit him with his dog.  He needs room to run, wrestle and tug of war with his dog as well as let the dog carry the ball at times before going back to wrestling.  The small confines lend themselves to low key high attention to detail work.  His dog needs high drive playtime with him to help build team and to build the want to come back and play with the owner instead of just posessing the toy. 
 

Keith, I am in Northwest Indiana. I do understand the importance of not throwing the reward any longer so I will stop doing that & go with keeping it in my hand. I do have a fenced in back yard that I do a lot of it in but I also go to our local fairgrounds for more space.

I don't see this problem as an issue of stubborness or independence, but rather guarding instinct.  Some dogs have more instinct to guard their "prey" than others.  The biggest mistake I see handlers making with puppies that have a lot of guarding instinct is taking the toy from them.  We NEVER take the toy from our puppies or young dogs.  We give them no reason to think that if they bring their toy near us that they are in jeopardy of losing it. 

Here is an example of a typical starting play session with a young dog that has a high guarding instinct:

Dog is taken out on a leash, toy is shown, drive is built with a couple of misses, dog is allowed to get the toy while I am still holding it (either a tug or ball on string), I play tug for a little bit while getting the leash, wait until the dog is tugging good and release the toy, circle the dog on the leash while bringing him closer, calming petting over the head while quietly praising, encourage the dog to reengage in tugging with me and repeat the above steps.  When we are done with the session, I bring the dog in and calmly pet over the head until he releases the toy on his own or if that will take too long, I distract with a second toy until the first toy is dropped. 

After the dog is regularly engaging me to resume tugging during the session,  I teach the two toy game.  I never let the dog feel like I am going to take his toy from him and I never let him play with anything without me being at the center of the fun.  It is an issue of trust. 

I trust all sides of all advise given...all have valid points. I feel if i can come up with a game plan to implement the 4 ft leash with the rope ball along with letting him drop the ball on his own. I feel all of this put in the same plan CANNOT hurt our training & better his recalls. With all of this said, with this training...I want to let him have "me" time off leash when at the fairgrounds while relaxing on our off days under my supervision. He has shown some "yea right looks" when he is recalled. These tips help with this as well?