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by Keith Grossman on 25 July 2013 - 08:07
"I find one of it's many benefits is working with handlers that have made mistakes in foundation training, created conflict in the dog, can't handle the dog or need to to be coached on how to properly train and work their dog. Taking the handler out of the equation is sometimes the best thing for the dog. That is where the third party and decoy come in and the handler is merely a cheerleader, guided by the trainer and told when to praise his dog."
Yep, that'd be me...lol... Interestingly, I was the third party for a couple of the other dogs in our club...seems I only create conflict with my own but he is admittedly a much harder dog than the others I handled.
Yep, that'd be me...lol... Interestingly, I was the third party for a couple of the other dogs in our club...seems I only create conflict with my own but he is admittedly a much harder dog than the others I handled.
by Slamdunc on 25 July 2013 - 14:07
seems I only create conflict with my own but he is admittedly a much harder dog than the others I handled.
Is he actually all that "hard" or just have issues which make him "harder" for you to train now? The hectic nature, stubborness and conflict make the dog "harder" to train, but as far as hardness goes that is all relative.
Is he actually all that "hard" or just have issues which make him "harder" for you to train now? The hectic nature, stubborness and conflict make the dog "harder" to train, but as far as hardness goes that is all relative.
by Keith Grossman on 25 July 2013 - 16:07
"Is he actually all that 'hard' or just have issues which make him 'harder' for you to train now? The hectic nature, stubborness and conflict make the dog 'harder' to train, but as far as hardness goes that is all relative."
I'm defining hard as a dog that has good nerves, drive, aggression and doesn't shut down or hold a grudge when given a firm correction. He is independent but with the exception of the outing, I don't necessarily see him as a stubborn dog as he is reasonably compliant in obedience work. Everyone helping to work him, including some people with a lot more experience than I have, agree that he's a pretty tough dog. I just think that he just doesn't understand what's expected yet and the box is proving instrumental in limiting his options while we're trying to teach him that.
I'm defining hard as a dog that has good nerves, drive, aggression and doesn't shut down or hold a grudge when given a firm correction. He is independent but with the exception of the outing, I don't necessarily see him as a stubborn dog as he is reasonably compliant in obedience work. Everyone helping to work him, including some people with a lot more experience than I have, agree that he's a pretty tough dog. I just think that he just doesn't understand what's expected yet and the box is proving instrumental in limiting his options while we're trying to teach him that.
by vk4gsd on 25 July 2013 - 19:07
never used or seen one one used in real life, only heard about boxes and tables and seen vids. strike me as a training crutch for dogs that should not be doing the work. as far as i can tell they gained popularity by vendors/trainers having many dogs to feed and they want them snarling and snapping and spitting fire in the least possible time to churn out products/prospects in minimum time to maximize profit.
imo it is the training equivalent of puppy mills
imo it is the training equivalent of puppy mills
by Slamdunc on 25 July 2013 - 19:07
vk4gsd,
You need to get out and do some training and be a little more open minded. You assumptions about table training are completely wrong. You would need to train with someone that really understands how to read dogs, work dogs and utilize the table properly to see it's benefits. Reading and watching videos may not clearly show you all of the benefits.
You need to get out and do some training and be a little more open minded. You assumptions about table training are completely wrong. You would need to train with someone that really understands how to read dogs, work dogs and utilize the table properly to see it's benefits. Reading and watching videos may not clearly show you all of the benefits.
by vk4gsd on 25 July 2013 - 19:07
slam unless you plan on living forever you can/will not be able to personally experience every single option that is out there. we all have to truncate so to speak and make a best guess on what we are going to committ to and follow if anyone is to get anywhere at anything. i do not wish to follow the path of whipping dogs on tables and remove all flight options to build drive/agression whatever.
i f i had a dog that needed that to get it up i would instead do agility, tracking or just keep it as a pet. fortunately for my goals i do not have a dog that needs be bolted to a post and whipped to get agression out of it, each to his own, not judging. i think every single trainer should have to endure/experience whatever training methods they apply to their dogs tho in a broad sense.
i f i had a dog that needed that to get it up i would instead do agility, tracking or just keep it as a pet. fortunately for my goals i do not have a dog that needs be bolted to a post and whipped to get agression out of it, each to his own, not judging. i think every single trainer should have to endure/experience whatever training methods they apply to their dogs tho in a broad sense.
by Slamdunc on 25 July 2013 - 21:07
vk4gsds,
You have so much to learn and so little time to do it. The point is to not universally condemn training that you have never seen in person, never experienced or really understand. If it's not for you then by all means don't do it. You have a lot to learn, and are not really in the best position based on your experience level to knock training techniques that you have learned about or experienced solely on the internet. Table training is far more than whipping dogs into a frenzy to make them aggressive. I understand why you might think that with your limited experience. When you find some really good trainers and decoys to work with you will have a much better understanding of training principles and working dogs. Then you can make an informed decision about training techniques and we can have an intelligent conversation about training methods and how to properly implement them.
You have so much to learn and so little time to do it. The point is to not universally condemn training that you have never seen in person, never experienced or really understand. If it's not for you then by all means don't do it. You have a lot to learn, and are not really in the best position based on your experience level to knock training techniques that you have learned about or experienced solely on the internet. Table training is far more than whipping dogs into a frenzy to make them aggressive. I understand why you might think that with your limited experience. When you find some really good trainers and decoys to work with you will have a much better understanding of training principles and working dogs. Then you can make an informed decision about training techniques and we can have an intelligent conversation about training methods and how to properly implement them.
by Keith Grossman on 25 July 2013 - 21:07
"... i f i had a dog that needed that to get it up i would instead do agility, tracking or just keep it as a pet. fortunately for my goals i do not have a dog that needs be bolted to a post and whipped to get agression out of it..."
This is pretty funny coming from someone who several days ago was asking about how to develop a grip in a dog who doesn't genetically have that ability. Relax, vk4gsd; no one is bolting dogs to posts and whipping them to bring out aggression. My young dog has plenty of natural aggression and has been giving full-moth grips on a trial sleeve since he was 9 months old with very experienced helpers commenting on how hard he bites. There are no whips involved and we aren't using the box to increase the dog's intensity; quite the opposite actually. The dog is already plenty intense. We are actually using the box to slow him down so that we can teach him that yes, this is what we want and good things happen when you calm down and show us that and no, this is what we don't want and you don't get those good things when you do that. There is actually very little going on that would be considered negative or a punishment for the dog. Do this...good things happen...don't do this, no good things happen. We aren't beating up the dog...we're showing him the behaviors for which he gets rewarded in a controlled environment. Ed's diatribe about table training is dated as was his position on markers...before he changed his mind. Used incorrectly, he is absolutely correct...a table can ruin an otherwise perfectly capable dog but used correctly, they can be a very worthwhile training tool.
As an aside, it's sort of funny that Jim and I are coming full circle agreeing on this issue and are enjoying a little bit of a bromance talking about it despite our obvious differences of opinion on some other subjects. We can agree to disagree and still be friends, Jim. It doesn't have to be hateful. I'm actually one of the good guys and based on what you've said here about what you look for in a dog, I'm guessing you'd really like the dog I'm working.
This is pretty funny coming from someone who several days ago was asking about how to develop a grip in a dog who doesn't genetically have that ability. Relax, vk4gsd; no one is bolting dogs to posts and whipping them to bring out aggression. My young dog has plenty of natural aggression and has been giving full-moth grips on a trial sleeve since he was 9 months old with very experienced helpers commenting on how hard he bites. There are no whips involved and we aren't using the box to increase the dog's intensity; quite the opposite actually. The dog is already plenty intense. We are actually using the box to slow him down so that we can teach him that yes, this is what we want and good things happen when you calm down and show us that and no, this is what we don't want and you don't get those good things when you do that. There is actually very little going on that would be considered negative or a punishment for the dog. Do this...good things happen...don't do this, no good things happen. We aren't beating up the dog...we're showing him the behaviors for which he gets rewarded in a controlled environment. Ed's diatribe about table training is dated as was his position on markers...before he changed his mind. Used incorrectly, he is absolutely correct...a table can ruin an otherwise perfectly capable dog but used correctly, they can be a very worthwhile training tool.
As an aside, it's sort of funny that Jim and I are coming full circle agreeing on this issue and are enjoying a little bit of a bromance talking about it despite our obvious differences of opinion on some other subjects. We can agree to disagree and still be friends, Jim. It doesn't have to be hateful. I'm actually one of the good guys and based on what you've said here about what you look for in a dog, I'm guessing you'd really like the dog I'm working.
by Slamdunc on 25 July 2013 - 22:07
As an aside, it's sort of funny that Jim and I are coming full circle agreeing on this issue and are enjoying a little bit of a bromance talking about it despite our obvious differences of opinion on some other subjects. We can agree to disagree and still be friends, Jim. It doesn't have to be hateful. I'm actually one of the good guys and based on what you've said here about what you look for in a dog, I'm guessing you'd really like the dog I'm working.
Whoooooa.....................Let's back the bus up and not jump to conclusions; let's not get carried away. I probably would like the dog, I love all dogs. It is clear that you have created some conflict in the dog; it is also good that you are training with people to help you resolve the issues. Almost 20 years ago when I was brand new to SchH, I had an awesome male GSD that I really screwed up in the beginning not knowing any better. The relationship and bond was damaged and I had a lot of work to do to correct the issues that I caused. Over the course of a couple years I learned how to better handle the dog and titled the dog to a SchH 3. I loved that dog, and I never gave up and addressed the issues I caused. In the end we had a great relationship and a great bond, despite his tagging me numerous times as a young dog. I learned a tremendous amount from that dog and vowed to never make those same mistakes again. Each dog since him has turned out better and a lot of problems were avoided and a lot of things changed. I wish I could have that maniac back today as a pup knowing what I know now. It's good to hear that you are aware of the issues and working on correcting them. Your dog will really benefit.
But, Bromance is really pushing it. ROTFLMAO! I don't see us connecting on Linkedin or being Facebook friends. We won't be having a beer at the WUSV together.
Whoooooa.....................Let's back the bus up and not jump to conclusions; let's not get carried away. I probably would like the dog, I love all dogs. It is clear that you have created some conflict in the dog; it is also good that you are training with people to help you resolve the issues. Almost 20 years ago when I was brand new to SchH, I had an awesome male GSD that I really screwed up in the beginning not knowing any better. The relationship and bond was damaged and I had a lot of work to do to correct the issues that I caused. Over the course of a couple years I learned how to better handle the dog and titled the dog to a SchH 3. I loved that dog, and I never gave up and addressed the issues I caused. In the end we had a great relationship and a great bond, despite his tagging me numerous times as a young dog. I learned a tremendous amount from that dog and vowed to never make those same mistakes again. Each dog since him has turned out better and a lot of problems were avoided and a lot of things changed. I wish I could have that maniac back today as a pup knowing what I know now. It's good to hear that you are aware of the issues and working on correcting them. Your dog will really benefit.
But, Bromance is really pushing it. ROTFLMAO! I don't see us connecting on Linkedin or being Facebook friends. We won't be having a beer at the WUSV together.
by samael28 on 25 July 2013 - 22:07
keith and jim. great posts.
and keith i can relate with causing conflict with your own dog and not others. for me though it was because i had invested interest and personal relationship.
but i could handle/train anyone elses dogs. your not alone man. im sure many of us have caught ourselves doing this at some point that have had enough
dogs under our hands.
But being every dog is different, maybe you guys and some others could go more in depth here.
how exactly can you slow a dog down and its benefits. how does it actually help calm the dog in the grip? how can it help them deal with the pressure if working in defense?
what are you doing and looking for from this tool to obtain balance? some of the physiological differences both in dog and decoy you look for?etc.... but please put the other side(helpers) to this equation in these questions please.
just a rough break down of maybe say 3 classifications of dogs. as we all know everyone is different. but say a prey dog to bring up fight and defense. training a dog mostly defense and less prey. and dogs like keiths to take handler out and slow/calm the dog allowing it to be successful.
and keith i can relate with causing conflict with your own dog and not others. for me though it was because i had invested interest and personal relationship.
but i could handle/train anyone elses dogs. your not alone man. im sure many of us have caught ourselves doing this at some point that have had enough
dogs under our hands.
But being every dog is different, maybe you guys and some others could go more in depth here.
how exactly can you slow a dog down and its benefits. how does it actually help calm the dog in the grip? how can it help them deal with the pressure if working in defense?
what are you doing and looking for from this tool to obtain balance? some of the physiological differences both in dog and decoy you look for?etc.... but please put the other side(helpers) to this equation in these questions please.
just a rough break down of maybe say 3 classifications of dogs. as we all know everyone is different. but say a prey dog to bring up fight and defense. training a dog mostly defense and less prey. and dogs like keiths to take handler out and slow/calm the dog allowing it to be successful.
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