gun fire training - Page 2

In the past, with our last dog; I used to take him to the rod and gun club on the weekends when they were having a range shoot.  We spent about the first 1/2 hr or so in the truck, just watching and listening to the flow of people, traffic and gun shots.  We would then move into the club and eventually closer to range firing.  At the end of the day, he had no issues with the noise of the guns going off.  I never made it a big deal and I believe he thought so also.   He also would spend a day at the ranges on the odd weekend, when I was assisting in running the ranges for the reserves.  I started this when he was about a year old.  I wanted to make sure that he was obedience trained first...so we would not run into any problems with the amount of people or the activity that was going on.

Having spent a lot of time around firing ranges and being shot at for a period ot time on tour...I really have to say that  I might have heard the first shot, maybe the second...but after that I became focus on the target or targets and the sound of rifle fire was the least of my problems and cannot recall hearing shots from my rifle or friendly fire in most cases.   It really came down to 3-5 minutes of WTF just happen and digesting it all afterwards.  Not sure whether dogs process it the same or not.

I participated in a class to get dogs ready for the ATTS certification.  The prep involved firing a blank - indoors.

The first time the blank gun was used, the dogs were in a heal.  Many of the dogs whimpered and didn't know what to do.  My dog acted a little gun shy which surprised me.  The next time the blank was fired, the dogs were turned on (given something to do).  When the blank was fired, my dog stopped barking, turned to looked at me, and then turned back and started barking again.  In subsequent firings, he had less and less of a reaction.

My conclusion was that when my dog had to decide for himself how to react to the gun fire, he didn't know how to react and took his cue from other dogs.  When he was given a command and the blank was fired, he checked in with me to see how he should react and when he saw that I hadn't reacted, then he knew not to react.

I agree to some extent that gun shyness is in the genes.  But that doesn't mean a dog without the gene can be made to be gubn shy and it doesn't mean that a dog with the gene can't be taught not to react - although some might require a lot of work.

By the way, in the ATTS test, the gunfire was from a wimpy gun and my dog had absolutely no reaction.

this is exactly why schutzhund sport is no longer an adequate test of nerve strength or true working ability.  it was meant to be a TEST, not
something to be trained for so the dogs could "pass."  no wonder we have such a large percentage of nervebags!  go to any club & watch
the training.  week after week people & dogs working on "problems" just so they can "pass" a goddamn trial.  points!!!! ugh.  if these dogs
truly were worthy of breeding, they would not need to be "trained" for gun soundness.  :(
pjp

Ziegenfarm,

My boy Nero and girl Cera are far from points dogs (at least with my beginning level Sch handling ability) BUT I have been tranining
K9s for 8 years (which is STILL not a very long time). An old police dog trainer showed me how to do gunfire with puppies, and I
have been doing it ever since. Shutzhund is a sport, not a test anymore. This is why it is important to view any dog you wish to use for
breeding in the flesh. Temperament flaws will show themselves, regardless of whether or not a dog has been desensitized to gunfire
as a puppy. I enjoy training in Sch with my dogs... it is the road to the title that you should learn the most about your dog. A title
is just the icing on the cake for the hard work that you have put in.

This is like saying that you should be able to take a puppy/dog with bare minimum socialization and be able to make it into a K9. Yes,
there are some that can, I will never deny that, but the majority of dogs need some form of socialization. Any dog, not just GSD.

Melissa

@pjp...

I never train for it, rather test for it.

How did this turn into a SchH bashing thread?  How did we get onto breeding nervebags?  Those who have actually titled a dog in SchH understand the basis for the gunfire in that discipline.  Because a dog passes a SchH 1, 2 or 3 does not make it breed worthy by itself.  To me, a HOT dog does show a dedicated handler that has put some time into training and working with their dog.   I test potential Police K-9's for gun sureness and sound nerves.  Part of our yearly patrol certification requires the Patrol dog to be off lead and the handler has to challenge a subject who begins to fire, the handler has to return fire (minimum 2 rounds) and the dog can not break when the handler fires.  The subject who fires first is not wearing anny equipment and it can be potentially dangerous if teh dog breaks.  We should / need to train for this to make our patrol dogs "gunfire neutral." 

I guess my point was that while a dog may be genetically disposed to being gunshy or not gunshy, it doesn't prevent the dog from developing bad habits as a result from bad handling or overcoming genetics with good training.  A dog that requires training to get over genetics is probably not a good candidate for sch regardless of whther the genetics makes it gunshy or spooky in other aspects of sch or police dog training. 

When my dog was young, someone set off a 1/4 stick of dynamite near by and his only reaction was to take a quick step, but overwise didn't react.  I was surprised when later he reacted to the blank being fired.

Besides, the thread was about how you train not whether or not you train for gun fire.

Right, I want a dog who has only been exposed to gunfire twice - once when it was tested and the second time when it was a real gun.  Of course people should train for gun fire.

Its a bit different, but I have difficulty with whether the dog gets 'trained' to gunfire
inadvertently.  Example:   Taz was gun tested at Survey when he was two years
old.  As far as I know (can't be entirely sure) he had never been tested before
at that point;  had never been at a Club where a gun was fired;  I cannot guarantee
that he had NEVER heard similar bangs before, as in London people let off loud
'banger' fireworks all the time, and  there are lots of other similar bangs, from car
backfires or goods loading/unloading... and even from time to time real gunfire.
(Out in the countryside, we have the same, but less frequent experiences PLUS
double bangs from hunting with shotguns.)

Taz did what one would want him to do:  acknowledged the bang by looking around
for it a bit, but no sign of panic and soon settled down again because it didn't keep
happening.   So I assumed he wasn't 'gun shy' ...  but I don't actually KNOW he was
completely unpractised !  Occurs to me others must come across similar circumstances ?

Something I did not mention in my post from before.  When exposing your dog to gun fire, blanks or real..you may want to consider their hearing.  A person hearing can be affected by gun fire....all it takes is one round fired in close proximity.  Now consider a dog with their sense of hearing and make sure that your not making them hearing impaired.