12X SchH 3 - Page 2

You wonder about dogs that pass the BH but don't question their trial testing????  You lost me.  The BH is a simple obedience routine and temperament test, not a title just a prerequisite to trialing and titling.  Why don't you mention which regional or national level dogs could not pass a BH twice?  

25 x BH says a dog can't be titled but the owner can do some basic obedience why would that show anything?  Obviously, there is no reason to repeat a BH.  Please explain the difference to me, I don't get where you were going.

I'm not intending this in a mean way, but you're being awfully dense.  NO, I'm not talking about any dog/handler that ever tried to take a BH temperament test more than once.  I'm generalizing about dogs that would undoubtedly fail if repeated, because they were awfully lucky to squeek by the first time.  IN MATTERS OF TEMPERAMENT THAT OBVIOUSLY AREN'T TESTED IN FIELD TRIALS.

Daryl,
I am obviously dense.  So you are telling me that a dog can squeak by a BH but go on to compete at a regional or National level and has a poor temperament?  I would say your generalizations are way off.  A regional or National level event  and the training it takes to get there is far more of a temperament test than a BH. 

If you had been a little more involved in SchH and actually put a BH or a title on a dog you would realize that I am not that dense.  A SchH 3 is far more of a temperament test than a BH.  Again, I can go to the pound today take a dog and have it ready for a BH in a month.  I couldn't have most pound dogs ever ready for a SchH title.  It is a temperament issue, the trial tests temperament more than the BH does.  People that have invested time training a dog in all three disciplines realize this. 

Playing dumb and feigning innocence to bait me into a sorely needed debate to soothe your damn ego...  I think you're just not "right" if you're not arguing with or belittling someone.

You can't convince me that you're completely oblivious to the differences of temperament testing in a BH that are not directly covered in a SchH1, 2 or 3, at any level.  "More" of a test, is a rather naive description (making YOUR generalization way off), but you should know that, ESPECIALLY since you are so vastly experienced.

If you learn nothing from this exchange, at least pick up what I'm laying down here; I really don't care to debate with you.  You can't hammer respect from me, nor will you bully me into agreement with you.  I said what I meant, and I simply don't CARE if you agree.

Daryl, I appreciate the fact that you think I am playing dumb. In reality I am not playing dumb; I suppose I am just really dense. I was responding to your statements which I am having trouble comprehending. I know you are an intelligent guy and that is why I am so baffled by your position. I do not think that having a jogger, a car and a bike pass a dog is very difficult. Tying a dog to a tree and walking another dog by shows good training and doesn't necessarily expose dog aggressive dogs. As I said before we can disagree. I still believe the training and effort put into a dog to pass a BH and a SchH 1, 2, 3 is more telling of a dogs temperament than a BH alone. I can certainly tell more about a dog's temperament by watching it work in all 3 phases than just seeing it do a BH. Sorry, if you feel I am being dense or baiting you. I think I expressed my point pretty clearly.

Tying a dog to a tree and walking another dog by shows good training and doesn't necessarily expose dog aggressive dogs. 
 

Well, that's something I can agree with.  And, is it really a "fair" test to the dog, to make it platz while a dozen people who have surrounded the dog move a step or two foreward in unison while hovering and staring intently at it?  The correct response I suppose is no response, but if the dog feels it must move out of harms way or defend itself against aggressors... depending on the group's intensity and the intensity of the dog's reaction... who's to say but the judge, really?

See, that's the thing too.  Each judge might test for different things in a different manner, all falling under the portion of the test labeled "traffic".  Calamourous crashing of pans on the ground aside a platzed dog, or whatever the judge of the day decides or how creative he/she wants to be...  THAT's why you can't fairly compare a non-standardized "temperament test" to a supposedly stardardized field test.  So then, taking three BH's (or more) might be more telling of the dog, depending on each of the different judge's different setup scenarios, than any difference you're going to see between say... the 11th SchH3 "standardized" trial and the 12th SchH3 "standardized" trial.  Remember, the comparison was 'multiple tests/trials'.

So now, can you better see that any disagreement we have about this, really boils down to a matter of perspective?  And certainly not worth arguing over... so, whatever you say, I would STILL see more value in multiple BH's than in multiple SchH3's.  I clearly read your points, and hope you can now clearly read mine.

Daryl,
That response I clearly understand and do agree with to a certain extent.  You have made your point with clear examples that I can appreciate.  I believe the pressure of training tracking, all the OB and protection components takes a toll on the dog.  Trying to maintain a high level of performance in all three disciplines can be stressful on a dog.  Often times a dog will show some signs of stress in one area of training when pressure is put on the dog in other areas.  My final comment on multiple SchH 3 dogs competing at high levels is that it is far more telling than multiple BH's.  Again, we can disagree.  You can still think you are right and I can still think you are wrong. 

I hope it was appearant to you that I never stated that a BH was "more" of a test than a SchH3, just different, and sometimes different from on BH to the next.  So then, as far as multiple testing goes, can you please explain what you might see in the 12th SchH3 that you would not have seen in the 11th... or 10th, and so on?  Sure, they might be performed on a different field and under a different judge, but are you really going to see a lot of difference?  I don't think so, and the field test is meant to be standardized.

I think I have answered that question several times.

Several times, huh?  Well, reading back, I can't find any of them.  And the only comment of any remote relevance I can find in your recently posted threads is the following...

Best breeding dogs don't win big events
The point is dogs are dogs and there is good and bad in every breed. If you can read dogs you can certainly watch a SchH trial, tracking, OB and protection work and tell who the really good dogs are from the really well trained dogs. If nothing else it gives you a standardized arena to evaluate dogs, if you know what you are looking at. It helps to have titled a few dogs to be able understand the differences between good training and good dogs.
 

So again, after watching the 11th SchH3, what could you expect to learn in the 12th?  That the training has improved?  Personally, I would want to see how the dog responds in different situations, rather than conditioned replays of the same scenarios.  If there's nothing else a dog should be good at, it would be good at learning routines.