Corrections in Public - Page 2

Thanks Slam


Kim

Yes, thank you so much for that Slamdunc. Sometimes it is just hard to bear watching, even when things are done with the best of intentions.

Good advice from Slamdunc and Pirates Lair as always.

I was able to discuss this with one of my trainers.  This particular trainer specializes in aggressive dogs.  He trains police dogs on the East Coast and works at a police academy.

He said that when the dog requires a hard correction, stop what I'm doing, take him to a more secluded space and try to recreate the situation and correct as necessary.

Aggressive dogs can be tough to deal with.  And as far as ecollar go, whenever he sees me grab it he gets excited.  I hold the collar open and he lays his neck on it while I buckle it up.  I can think of a few worse things than an ecollar; being put down for aggression is one, biting some other dog is another. 

But I agree that it was my fault that he went after me.  I allowed it to happen, but since it did happen, I needed to deal with it and let him know in no uncertain terms that biting me in particular and people in general is unacceptable.  Just to let people know, a fox terrier is not your average 20 pound dog.  Their canines are very long, much longer than you would expect.  And this particular fox terrier is not your average fox terrier.  He extremely athletic and fearless. 

What I should have done and have done since the incident is some remedial dominance work with him, such as putting him in a down, straddling him, and gently rocking him from side to side with my ankles, rewarding him when he doesn't react.

I understand that some people are bothered by ecollars and hard corrections.  But comments like, "if you were doing it right you wouldn't need the ecollar" aren't very helpful.  A more useful comment would be something along the lines of, "it's better to avoid having to make a hard correction.  Try doing x y z."  Believe me, I don't take any enjoyment from zapping my dog.

I have 2 fox terriers.  Opposite ends of the spectrum.  The most aggression the other dog displays is the occassional snort of displeasure or maybe the occassional act of passive aggression, such as just sitting down and refusing to walk any further. 

He said that when the dog requires a hard correction, stop what I'm doing, take him to a more secluded space and try to recreate the situation and correct as necessary.

If you do that you have missed out on correcting the dog at the right time.  Once you take him somewhere else, he won't know what you are correcting him for.  Most trainers (and those here correct me if I'm wrong) tell you that its all about timing and you have only 3-5 seconds to correct and after that you have missed the opportunity.

No one is doubting the resilence of a fox terrier but naturally GSD people will see it as nothing compared to GSD.

Alpha roll your dog? I don't think working on dominance will make the relationship better.  You may need to just work on general OB and less dominance.  More dominance work could make the situation worse.

I could be totally off though.  Soemone else can give better advice.

Jeffs, Sorry but you just don't get it. I am an advocate of e collars and their use. My police k9 wears one everyday. It is not the right tool for you and your situation. A prong will make the situation worse as well. Pain induced corrections can elevate aggression and make the situation worse. I could explain what I would do in this situation, but I don't think that you would listen. A fox terrier is not that tough or hard of a dog. Unfortunately, you need a lot of help understanding your problem with your dog. Forget the "dominance" work and learn how to properly correct your dog. A nylon slip choke collar would work a whole lot better than an ecollar or prong. It won't increase the aggression and will stop the behavior. Again, I use e collars and prong collars but I have enough experience to know that they will not work for your dog for dog aggression with you administering the correction. They are simply not the right tools for this job. If your trainer has you using an ecollar for dog aggression I would advise finding a new trainer. Jmo fwiw. Jim

Jim, why do you hate ecollars? Geesh! You got a lot a learning to do.

I agree, you should not have an e-collar on a dog with handler aggression. And you do not need a prong collar to correct
a dog the size of a fox terrier.

I know you are looking for specific exercises to cure your dog's aggression, but that would be a book of typing or a few hours of sessions
with a trainer. 

You need to take all the training aids off your dog and go back to fundamental behavior and relationship building. The last thing you need to be working on right now is stuff like "tucking in closer on a heel/sit" and "laying down in straight line instead of at an angle". which is the two problems that got you bit.

All you need is a leash, buckle collar, your two hands, and the advice of a GOOD trainer to get a handle on this little terrier. 
Until I had the aggression under control, I would not do "training" in public. Then you dont have to worry about corrections in public.

Though you don't want to hear it, the advice of Slamdunc, Pirate's Lair and Detroit Sch is worth their weight in gold....they know what they are talking about with dogs that are far more dog than any you are dealing with.  That use of the e-collar, the pinch collar is going to really have consequences in ways you might not imagine.  I have three very dominant 95lb+ males and though I can have them on their backs and do almost anything to them it is because of trust that I can not out of force.  That is also the reason they accept fair corrections.  However, it is out of desire to please that my very stubborn male that would bite anyone else that corrects him is prancing and performing as fast as he can for me.  There is something fundamental that needs to be fixed in your relationship with the dog if a dog you feed and raise has that reaction to you and your approach is going to either escalate the dog's aggression or break the dog depending on his nerves.  Neither one is good.  Why he is in a fight mode when you move him has to do with his percieving your actions as a threat because of past corrections, no doubt.   

If I "zapped" my dogs when they were aggressing I assure you they would bite whomever or whatever they thought was the source of the pain. That is not what an e-collar is for. 

I walk all three males at the same time, sometimes there are loose dogs, sometimes stray cats, and dumb people, and I NEVER have to give a hard enough correction that someone looking might think badly of.  That is because of fundamentals.  And yes, if he is very dominant, never on the bed without invitation and willingness to get off on command etc, etc...but still the way you are correcting will escalate not eliminate the problem.  Anyone who tells you to take the dog away and correct him later has no understanding of training principals and I don't care who they are or what department they work for. 

Jeffs

If your trainer is as knowledgeable about dog training as he sounds, heaven help the dogs at the police academy.  Nothing you have said suggests this dog is dominant, you are causing the aggression with your own behaviour towards him and your post totally highlights why people should not be able to just buy electric collars without proper education in their use before using them unsupervised.

You have been given good advice from very knowledgeable people, why not try it?

Margaret N-J