E-Collar Training Theories - Page 2

I certainly agree with you Jim.  Im not going out to use a ecollar but I did remember this for some reason today and figured I'd ask.
VKGSD - Yeah that timing is crucial.

Thanks all for the info.

Good job I do not need an e-collar in my training
All the best 
Ulf

http://www.hulu.com/watch/161152/abc-nightline-treatment-or-torture   ,if its helps i wuld say its treatment

Hi Everyone :)
Does anyone condition the transmitter as well as the collar while training?

There is a distinct "click" when you push any button on the transmitter which will tip-off the dog & cause collar smarts.  Also, transmitters have indicator lights which go on when any button is pushed.

If you keep the transmitter hidden, the click will give you away.  If the transmitter is visible, the click & light will give you away.  If you have the transmitter in your pocket, your hand in your pocket will give you away.

I always condition the transmitter.  I carry it & press the buttons whether the dog has the collar on or not.  I talk into it while pressing the buttons, I use it like a tv remote, I press the buttons while petting, feeding, playing with the dog.  Sometimes he has the collar on, sometimes not.  Sometimes I put the collar on without having the transmitter.

For polishing obedience on an already trained dog (motivationally trained w/food & toy), I use continuous low-level stim.  Example: while heeling the dog looks away, immediately, I start continuous low level stimulation.  When the dog looks at me, I immediately discontinue stim., praise, continue heeling.

I don't use e collars, I'm not saying I wouldn't I just haven't run into a dog that I had to use one with.  That said I also don't compete in sch bc the nearest club is about 120mi one way so my dogs don't have to be as polished as those of you who do.  My question would be why would you want somebody else to correct your dog other than for the reasons jim gave in his post? I always want my dog to know the correction came from me, I also want him to realize that the praise came from me.  My issue with e collars is the number of people that have no idea what they are doing that run out buy one and then just zap the tar out of their dog.  I've known dogs that ended up laying on the ground seizing bc they owner just kept turning up the collar and zapping.  I don't know that there is any way to monitor them so it's just something that will always happen.  Even though I have trained for a long time since I have never used an e collar when or if I run into the situation that I need to use one, I will be finding somebody that is knowledgable and spending some time with them learning to use it correctly, sad that most people don't do that.

Good post Donnersturm. As I said before I do not believe an e-collar is needed in competition training. Corrections have to happen accordingly to the situations in training, the state of mind , frame of mind, level of drive, conditions and so on have to be considered when giving a correction. The correction is not only a jerk on the leash, it involves your mood,emotions, bodylanguage, voice and of course perfect timing. So in the end you have to change the intensity all the time, making decisions and adjust the correction in a fraction of a second. So how do you achieve that with an e-collar,constantly turning the knob of the remote?That will keep you very busy handling the technology. I rather rely on my experience, knowledge and abilities to read a dog, might sound old fashioned, but i do not care. I find it much more challlenging to manipulate dogs mind by using the muscle that counts, the brain.
Here is a link to a video I have recently made. It shows one of my dogs during some training.we are working towards her first IPO qualification. Speed, power and fairly good precision is all achieved without the e-collar.As I said , it is not the finished product yet, but I am sure we are getting there.
All the best
Ulf

http://vimeo.com/29251193

Nice Dog K9ulf!! Based on the tail action it is obv she loves what's she's doing, although you might wanna watch her tail for Carpal tunnel. LOL I don't want to derail this thread but there is a thread on the finish, I notice she has a really nice military finish, a couple of us on the other thread are just learning the military finish we always did the go behind, maybe you could pop over and give us some pointers? please..
Nikie

Nice video K9ulf.  About the fiddling with the buttons on the collar etc. & how confusing it can be: if you first think about the obedience situation, the level of distraction for the dog, the dog's level sensitivity to the stimulation, there's no need to be fiddling with buttons.  I use the collar only in situations where I can control all factors.

Donnerstorm-I agree with you.  I've seen lots of horrible e-collar training.  That doesn't mean the e-collar isn't one of the best tools when used properly.

It's funny, I use clicker, food, pinch & e-collar while training in different situations.  With purely positive trainers, I'm an outcast because I use aversives.  The reverse is true with the e-collar trainers because I use food & toys & clicker....

gsdpartisan, I understand I have purely motivational trainers that don't care for me either because like you I use all methods, as I said I haven't used an e collar because I just haven't needed one yet.  There are plenty of uses where it is required, and I believe it is more humane if used correctly to give a cpl corrections with an e collar as opposed to having to administer 100 corrections on a pinch collar.  As far as the purely motivational trainers, I used motivational methods probably 90% of the time, but at some point the rubber meets the road and you give your dog a command and he says "nope not doing that " and what are you going to do about it? When I give a command I expect it to be followed and followed immediately every time, dogs learn that there is a correction administered when they don't follow it.  I don't use compulsion when the dog is learning the command, but once he knows it and knows it well if I give it and dsn't do it something he finds unplesant is going to happen.  I've found the best philosophy when working with my dogs is make it very easy for the dog to make the right choice and very difficult for them to make the wrong one.  And for some dogs that does require an e collar, I just wish people would learn to use them correctly instead of just zapping.