I think treat training is cruel. - Page 14

Instinctive actions can be a pain in the bottom, especially with an animal with pronounced predatory instincts. Any survival instinct for that matter.

Prager says:
So as I expected no answer to my question

Prager-
You are surely joking here, yes?

You originally posted last night PST my time, I answered lengthily, then you come back with a scenario in the middle of the night...or this morning....and you expect me to have answered before 9 am my time? For your info, I am also, as an unimportant aside, the owner and CEO of a multimillion dollar company and also have other things to do. I will let you decide if that is true or not....and let you wonder about that, on occasion, for the rest of your life... which you will do. 😎

 

working for reward is working as long as there is no "bigger " reward as an option to choose from, also if something disturbs the routine, the dog is expecting to continue, can make an IPO3 dog fall out of program(during bitework) at the german national championships for example 

trained/shaped behaviour is allways a risk, that is why it is so important in sport to "secure" trained routines, on the street, in LE you are screwed when dog doesnot recognize scenario, as trained before, no trigger means no go

Prager-
Besides, your scenario is a trap question and you know it.

Joan already answered with a very valid point.

I can only say the following things:

At that point...if you have done all the training to get and proof a good heel, you should know your dog as well as you know yourself.

You should already know if your dog is reactive to other dogs or not.

If you don’t know it, then you have not proofed enough in all kinds of different circumstances.

A reaction to another dog is VISCERAL for your dog. I will say it is usually genetic. The dog can’t help his reaction. Just like his bristle going up....it is the autonomic nervous system.

So, we have to try to CHANGE the dogs MIND about the stimulus of another dog. This can take a long time, depending on your training resources and access to other dogs.

Every dog that is dog reactive, has a distance threshold. We have find out what that distance is, and try not to overload the dog by closing in on that distance too quickly. We want to avoid him going bonkers, which only strengthens his reaction.

So yes, if your dog is dog reactive, keep your head and eyes on a secret swivel and try to see the other dog before your dog does. You are higher up, and often can.

This is not something you can correct overnight, and it is too much to write on this thread about “whether food treats are cruel or not.” It is a chapter by itself.

And again...how to deal with dog reactivity, DEPENDS ON THE DOG and your relationship with the dog.

My idea and solution to a dog that is hard core dog reactive is to let the dog realize through training that I am more important than any dog or cat or goat, or deer.
He zeros in and as soon as he hears my voice his mind is rearranged and he is accutely aware of me, the other animal is now background and insignificant.

whisfull thinking

LOL...

I think I know what the next thread topic will be...

Prager:"...but at one point the dog sees a dog or cat and [brakes] heel position and starts barking at him. He is not responding to your heel command. What do you do at that moment?"
First, I think you have to know your dog and be able to predict what he is likely to do in that situation. That is what leashes and prong collars are for. If you consider PSA, the sport is all about trying to get your dog to bite during obedience and protection when the dog is not supposed to bite. And those trainers rely heavily on food, toys and e-collars, usually in that order. If you know you have a dog that is animal aggressive, why would you be heeling off leash in public? And to get the proficiency required in PSA, praise and petting will not come close to accomplishing obtaining a title. The obtaining of a PSA title at the higher levels is objective evidence of the dog being under extreme control, even with most of the dogs competing being very high drive. To say I want the dog to work for me and I know he does because I pet and praise him is totally subjective or just a belief.

Hundmutter says:
Jesse said: "Here's why Marker Training is so efficient: ... This why Timing is so crucial, and where most people fail. You need that "plan" of "What am I going to teach my dog EXACTLY".

My point entirely, about inexperienced owners at Dog Clubs. By the time they remember to say 'Yes Good Dog', the dog is already on its way into a Stand again ... (and thus being 'rewarded' for the wrong action. Ditto by the time they fumbled out a food treat.) Which is why the Clicker was a boon to them. Clickers are Quicker - when dog and owner have been shown what they mean, usually by a Trainer with more about them than the pupil owner.

Which is why my current dog did not understand the concept "Stay" when he arrived here, because he has had food shoved down him for giving the "Sit" (every time) even though his SIT did not last 2 seconds.

Point to consider: similar with Target Training. You can teach all sorts of sophisticated things with a target stick, if you want and need to do such;  but for basic obedience, heelwork, leadwork, sit/stand/down, go to bed, there really is no need, provided that you understand dog behaviour, and dogs learning, and human interaction with dogs.

HM-
That’s right.
Marker training theory is not rocket science...but for many people it is not easy either. To get the timing right, to communicate to the dog exactly what the person wants (which a lay person often doesn’t really know themselves), is not something everyone can get right. Many people are not in tune with their own bodies and movements...much less that of their dog. But, it can be learned.

Always good to video yourself...it’s humbling...’cause then you will see all your mistakes!

About increasing the length of the sit:

 Every sit should always be a sit/stay (without having to say ‘stay’). The dog should know that to sit, means to stay seated, until he is released, with whatever cue should mean release, at ease, to the dog.

With marker training, the beauty of it is...that you can place the marker at the exact moment of a behavior...but after a while, you don’t have to reinforce right away. You can build a ‘bridge of time’ with the marker and your voice by saying Goooood or Niiiiiiice , meaning ‘ keep doing it’.. The dog knows something good is coming eventually. So give the sit cue, when he sits mark it...walk backwards 2 steps while looking to the dog...and walk forward again...and give him the reinforcement. Extend time between marker and reinforcement and extend your distance to dog more and more. If the dog breaks the sit without your ok, he doesnt get the reinforcer and has to do it all over again. I personally like to combine hand signals, like a held-up stop here sign with my hand.  because dogs really learn them fast.

I want to add, that I am not writing here for all the regular contributors...because everyone here already know everything that I am writing. And I don’t want to come accross as a blah-blah, know it all either ....because nothing is as  humbling as dog training...a dog blowing you off to knock you off your high horse faster than lightning.

 

 

 

The wishful part of that scenario is " wish I had trained my dog better" !

Give an example of one of my dogs that was thoroughly trained to pay attention to my command when triggered.

Sch 2 trial during the honor portion of the obedience, while she was in the down:
Guy with the blank pistol was directly to my right in front of me..he opened the gate to the field, stepped on the field and raised the gun and fired straight towards my dog. I was looking that direction to my right when I see my female charging towards the guy at a full run.
Instantly I gave very strong down command...she dropped to the ground and slid to a stop, focused on the guy only about ten feet in front of her. I walked over and picked her up, returning her to the proper place to resume the exerscise.

Since the the guy had fired the gun basically in her face, the judge only deducted points explaining that she did not go off the field and had obeyed my command.

That's what I'm talking about having me be a stronger influence than the distraction. She, like all my dogs which I've trained, do the same if they trigger on a herd of deer.