I think treat training is cruel. - Page 13

@Vito/Joan: Sharpie markers are the cruelest of them all.

@prager. If a clicker trained dog is not responding to a command you would do the same thing as a food trained dog who did not respond to command.

Prager-
LOL, that’s what my momma used to say.

Prager says:
So what do you do when the clicker trained dog does not respond to your command?

As in any dog training...the answer is always “it depends”. It depends on so many factors.
 

First, I‘ll call it marker training. Because I don‘t use a clicker, but the same idea is behind it. 

And again, let me say to everyone...I don‘t write in CAPS to shout, I use caps to put emphasis on an important word.

So, let me start this way....

Marker training is great to TEACH NEW behaviors.
(To enforce already learned behaviors, as you know, there are different tools.) 

In marker training, we can wait for the dog to just do the behavior by himself (no command) mark and reinforce......or, we can LURE the dog into place (with treats or toys) and reinforce.

So

1.) In teaching a new behavior we NEVER want to correct a dog.
(As everyone knows, we only want to correct a dog if he willfully disobeys when he knows better. We have to proof a dog A LOT, before we know for sure that he knows the cue in every circumstance and in different environments and levels of distractions.)

2.) The second part of this answer is very simple. When learning a new behavior, the dog will AUTO CORRECT or try new behaviors himself.... because his agenda is to work with me to get that good reinforcement (what ever the reinforcement is for that particular dog - reinforcement can include praise too).

3.) If the dog does not do the behavior that you wish while teaching, then he gets nothing. You can cue up the word ‘NOPE’ which the dog will quickly understand to mean...try again. 

If a dog blows you off during LEARNING, the reinforcer is not high value enough...

....or you have been training this behavior too long...

.....or perhaps you are showing subtle, or not so subtle, frustration or anger in yourself. If you show this, the dog will feel it, and want to stop (depending on dogs temperament)

Each training session, can be from 2 minutes to 5 minutes at first. 

So in this stage, there are no corrections. 

I’ll need more of a fleshed out scenario, in order to give a better answer.

Marker trained cat

Prager-
I just saw your second post and more detailed scenario....hang on, maybe, if I’m smart enough, I can post of vid of my training from today about that. Don’t know if I can though...but will try.
Bee-
Those cruel Sharpie Markers 😆
Vito-
LOL...cute cat video of the day. How long did you search for that?

JJ

Not long. I found it on Hanzie's FB.

Jesse said: "Here's why Marker Training is so efficient: ... This why Timing is so crucial, and where most people fail. You need that "plan" of "What am I going to teach my dog EXACTLY".

 

My point entirely, about inexperienced owners at Dog Clubs. By the time they remember to say 'Yes Good Dog', the dog is already on its way into a Stand again ... (and thus being 'rewarded' for the wrong action. Ditto by the time they fumbled out a food treat.) Which is why the Clicker was a boon to them. Clickers are Quicker - when dog and owner have been shown what they mean, usually by a Trainer with more about them than the pupil owner.

 

Which is why my current dog did not understand the concept "Stay" when he arrived here, because he has had food shoved down him for giving the "Sit" (every time) even though his SIT did not last 2 seconds.

 

Point to consider: similar with Target Training. You can teach all sorts of sophisticated things with a target stick, if you want and need to do such;  but for basic obedience, heelwork, leadwork, sit/stand/down, go to bed, there really is no need, provided that you understand dog behaviour, and dogs learning, and human interaction with dogs.

Can the JOKERS please go somewhere else..

So as I expected no answer to my question. Here I repeat the question. So what do you do when the marker trained dog does not respond to your command? You are in stage 3/(practicing) or better yet 4/ (working) ( as I defined it on the previous page) and the dog does not listen because it is distracted? What do you do?

To make it easier to understand what I am asking I'll give you an example. You have a dog which went successfully through stages 1/(learning) and 2/(conditioning) of a learning process, meaning he understands the commands 100% and is perfectly conditioned. Now you walk on the street dog heels perfectly but at one point the dog sees a dog or cat and brakes heel position and starts barking at him. He is not responding to your heel command. What do you do at that moment? 

 

I understand what you mean.

However, while forming a working relationship with your dog, I don't see a problem with starting with a highly valued (for the dog) motivator, pairing it with something like a vocal reward, then at a later point only rewarding the dog with food or a toy occasionally.

Using a variable-intermittent schedule of reinforcement actually creates some of the strongest and most dependable learning changes. And then decreasing the rewards until you only use you voice. Afterward, you can reward the dog with play or a treat if you so choose.

If the dog is not responding to the heel command he is not fully trained....should not have been taken out on the street without a lead when not fully trained and proofed.
Only an amature would take a half trained dog out to the street unleashed. " Conditioned" does not mean he is "trained".