Breeding without Hip Certificiation - Page 3

I know there are a lot of people who think the price of GSD pups is ridiculous, but it takes a lot of time and effort to title and Koerklasse dogs. To me it's worth paying for.

Unfortuntely your right Shelley.

Ops -- to bad i am a straight shooter -- but here goes !! ok -- statistaclaay speaking most GSDs if the hips look good at 12 months, most likely there will be no future abnormality -- although not 100% but most likely will be AOK --- --the prob;em lies : those in the upper eschelons of the GSD worlds -- are not the friend of the GSD !! they are there for a variety of rerasons .. #1 -- MONEY .. also ego .. pride.. etc. etc -- having risen to the top -- i am asounded how the GSD is treated -- having a dog .. actuallky any breed --should be based on the mutuaL love and respect between canine and owner -- bottom line that is what should be -- that is why the wolf and the human gravitated toward each other -- becuase the mutual benefdit to each that so secured the bond -- a far cry from what we now do to out canines -- how can you say that you love the breed when these dogs are sold on a whim ?? the dog does not fit v or Va .. it's sold -- the WORST THAT YOU COULD DO TO A GSD - is Part with it -- that is the foremost way to break the animals heart -- so --ok let's prelim at 12 months -- if the report is poor .. that dog is gone --great attitude isn't it !! any of my dogs prelim or not -- so far nevert has one been sold --if not quality to breed or work -- i still rates .. simply .. becuase it is mine and vice -a verse -- you high end folks that sell and buy for thousand .. millions -- shame on you -- you are the worst of sorts in my book -- i bet you would sell your own children if the price was right

I know a lot of you breeders on here who charge big money for your showline sch dogs won't want to hear this but I will say it anyway. I train with REAL WORKING police dogs everyday. I help with their breeding program that produces their dogs. None of the dogs have hip certifications or koerlasse. The dogs work 5 to 8 years and never have any trouble at all. I believe that is just an excuse to charge more money for pups. If you breed 2 excellent ratings guess what you still end up with bad hips sometimes. I have even seen a well know slovak kennel who most of you buy from have dogs for sell that there parents had bad hip ratings and the dog have excellent hip rating. If a dog does the work then that dog should be breed and pass his genes onto the next line of REAL WORKING POLICE dogs . Don't get caught up in all the titles and certifications breeders use to justify their prices, go look at the dog doing real work and not just a routine he is trained to do. The GSD is a working dog. Oh by the way, over 100 dogs have been placed in our dept and others across the country and not 1 has ever developed any type of hip problems. I think this comes from the poor GSD's people have developed for show. I have over 30 years experience with police dogs so I believe I am entitled to my opinion.

mrgsd -- although we should ensure the healthoest dog in our breeding system -- following gemnetics and taking the appropriate trest/x-rays is significant --then again -- you do bring up a point ,..that ther does lie a lot of hypocrisy -- just because a dog doesn't hjave a Sch title really does not deem that dog to be breed worhty or not -- i second your comment in that rtespect -- a HEALTHY police dog w/o sch or any other title IMO is just as ..perhaps ..even more breed worthy !!

YES mrgsd2006, you are entitled to your opinion. I too know plenty of police dogs and many of them have hip problems as well as other common health issues. I have dealt with more than 400 GSDs in the last 10 years and though I do not think that titles and KKL is the end all, be all, I also think it is irresponsible NOT to do everything one can to be certain that dogs of whatever breed who are being bred are free as possible of health problems. I have seen plenty of GSDs from all bloodlines who have all kinds of health problems. As far as working ability, I have seen all bloodlines, show as well as working bloodlines who have little ability to work and I have seen plenty from all bloodlines that, if given appropriate and competent training, can work. As far as ALPHAPUPs' comment on why the wolf and human gravitated towards each other....they did not. The wolfs likely came for one reason and one reason only. FOOD. Over time, the least careful and perhaps even the weakest of the packs found it easier to eat around human camps. There was no love or mutual respect .............and todays' dogs are a result of thousands of years selection for traits that led to dogs and humans being able to develop bonds.

you tell'em Alpha. i wouldn't or couldn't sell any of my dogs for ANY price. But to most of these big wiggs it is a business. my first shepherds hips were awful,did a otal hip replacement on her.and that was back in 1993.second female got D.M. at age 7.just put her to sleep in sept at the age of 13. my male BAD HIPS,he's still here :)) i finally got one with good hips now waiting to do my 1 year old. i just don't understand people.

mrgsd2006, I too have seen many police dogs retired early due to hips. Your police department may be one of the luckiest in the world. To say Koerklasse and hip certification is a sham is remakably naive. Just my opinion.

Hodie, I have seen your ads for longcoat shepherds. All of these are imports. Do you just import dogs to say you trained them and then sell there offspring. Do all your pups parents have all the bells and whistles. I don't believe you on dealing with police dogs and them having that many health issues. Good healthy police dogs just don't have the problems you state. You are just an import breeder trying to make money. SORRY, I call em as I see em. ALPHA you on the other hand are right about a real working dog being more breed worth than a SCH dog. Now days title are to easily bought.

DesertRanger, http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/61647.html#61653 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/63423.html#63512 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/67705.html#67758 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/65349.html#65363 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/17095.html#17154 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/33800.html#33938 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/19169.html#19258 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/61647.html#61677 Talk about beating a dead horse to death! This topic comes up every 2 weeks or so, if you would of did a search messageboard, prior to posting, all your questions have been answered numerous times in several threads and posts by many different people with different angles and reason behind their answers. Once again, here we go, with your personal questions. I used "bad hips producing good hips" in the search messageboard to get all the positive results above. "You would think that with the huge concern over HD that breeders with any knowledge at all would NEVER breed without both the Sire and Dam having their hips certified as acceptable." Opinion. If you want to really, and I mean really get into this, many educated people have decided that this is not a genetic problem, so OFA certification and A stamps for breed worthiness is a waste of time. Why do OFA excellent dogs then throw dysplastic offspring if it is genetic? If it is genetic, why can two dysplastic dogs throw offspring with good hips? Why do two A3 Noch Zugelassen dogs being bred, Noch Zugelassen means Mild Dysplasia, produce A1 hips? http://www.offa.org/hipgrade.html http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/38136.html#38141 People are saying HD it is not genetic, it is environment and diet. People are now looking at environment and diet. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/32122.html#32138 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/19169.html#19258 "Yet this is still occuring. Just having "prelims" is not acceptable." Opinion, why not? An x-ray just show at that particular moment in time, what the hips look like. "We all know of cases where prelims looked good but at 2 years of age it changed and hips failed." Can you say environmental changes? A hip x-ray does not distinguish environmental changes / injuries from genetic hip deficiencies. As for waiting till 2 years to x-ray and certify, that is fine for a house dog/pet or sport club dog, but a working police dog, herding dog, border patrol, customs dog and so on begin work at a younger age and could injure those hips prior to a 2 year certification with your ofa. Losts of environmental changes / injuries and so can happen to working dogs. "Bottom line you should never breed until your GSD is over two and has certification papers." Opinion, the SV says 20 months for a male. Here is one for thought, "OFA fair & NZ produce better hips then OFA excellent and A1 hips", throw a twist on that one. People are saying it more and more all the time.