Breeding/training goals - Page 7

LuvCzechDawgz, you make comments on things you know very little about. Your last post made that clear. In Germany every K9 prospect, regardless how well it tests still has to go through a trial period before the police will accept it. The difference is that German police still accepts far more single purpose dogs as the US does. We know that a lot of dogs we have rejected still end up with K9 outfits overseas. We see some of the dogs several times, still reject them and then eventually some K9 trainer overseas will take them. Usually because they are „a good deal“ even if they can barely squeeze by. K9 outfits take mixes, other breeds, unpapered dogs. K9 outfits do not care about lines, and why should they. They are not going to breed with the dogs, the dogs are there to work. It is the individual dog, not the lines. And please don't base your experience on a single occurrance, when others reject hundreds of dogs every month in order to find a few good ones. For many departments budget restraints make it necessary to go with lesser quality dogs, that does not mean better quality dogs are not out there. In Germany any sensible K9 handler would rather pay extra out of his own pocket (and usually end up doing so) than be left with an insufficient, inadequate dog. A lot of the BSP dogs today are also nothing like their counterparts back in the 70s, where a BSP dog would still have nice conformation, comparable to the dogs of the time. You also obviously have no idea of what is involved to VA a dog in Germany. Nothing like a US Sieger Show where you show up once. In Germany a VA dog is judged on his performance of a whole year, and if he is old enough by what he produces. There are several VA dogs that do good work, and pass it on. Ghandi comes to mind instantly. Not all the time, neither do most BSP dogs. When you breed for extremes you will always loose balance. You have not bred much yet, that becomes apparent, but you are such an authority... Take two full glasses of water. Full to the rim. One you leave as is, in the other you throw a pebble. The water will spill. What you spilled you have lost. That is breeding for extremes. On the surface you have water in both glasses. In one, the pebble has added to the content of the glass, but it has taken away from the water. cont...

Since you have clear preference for certain extremes, that also makes you prejudice for what is an acceptable extreme and what is not. Sensible breeding means we have neither extreme angulation, nor extreme drives. You are the prime example of those who were responsible for divinding the GSD into two camps. You are single minded my friend. Just proved it. Show is part of the breed just like work is. Again, you are single minded in favor of one. If you want the balanced dog you must do both. The standard and the breeding regulations dictate it. You cannot breed a dog without a show rating. You cannot breed a dog without a SchH title. A G is enough, a SchH1 with a passing score is enough. If one is good enough, the other is too. If a dog is expected to excell in one, then it is only sensible to expect it to excell in the other too. So – if you want the show dogs to prove that they can excell in the SchH area, then let the working dogs do the same in the show arena. All German shepherds were not originally „created“ to do SchH. The GSD was created as a herding dog, and to protect the home and flock. The other talents did not surface until later. As a breeder you have to be able to go beyond „nice“. Or more – what *you* think is nice. If you want to be true to the breed nice will not do. Extremes will not do. Single mindedness will not do. You need to create a picture of the ideal dog that will include nice, in addition to everthing else that is important to the breed. And not every litter will even come close to your ideal. Your ideal will not be the next persons ideal. This is why we have judges to keep our ideals as close together as possible. Barring their own preferences or course. Stop being so cheeky.

Morgan, show vs working lines is more of an issue on this board and in the US as it is in Germany. In Germany one rarely bothers with the other, and the naysayers usually do so out of ignorance, rather than (f)actual knowledge. The more serious a German breeder gets, the more he tends to care about the whole picture, not just parts of it. That too is a natural development. Those trying to breed the next BSP or BSZS Champion are usually a flash in the pan and disappear as quickly as they appeared. Kudos for sticking with the breed for 50 years. I have been with dogs and breeding dogs for quite a while now and the GSD has been an intense education for me, but it takes time to be able to appreciate the many facets and aspects this breed has to offer.

AMEN DH!!!!

Glad you made me an authority DH. I must have got that title right after you. LOL I never once said that. My point on the police dogs was said primarily of the US police prospects as a whole. This was not to speak of every police k9 unit. The comments on Germany was not meant for every police k9 unit. Neither (hopefully) was your comment about them all using showline dogs was meant of every unit. I know it wasn't. So perhaps implied things yourself on my post. No one said GSDs were created to do SchH either. So once again you're going on a tangent. :: YAWNS:: Back to the topic here...

Like I stated I prefer the working dogs so fault me DH but this is my perference. Anytime a look is too much of a dogs criteria the results are not good no matter what breed it is. Give me a good working, stable, intelligent, healthy, straight backed average looking sable and I will be happy.

"The pad the wallet routine went away after 2003. The organizations now compensate the helpers to avoid the conflict. Those days are gone." So why are some trainers telling clients that it is "customary" to pay the helpers? Oops, maybe they said "tip" the helpers??? I have heard this directly, have seen it happen, and have heard from friends that they have been instructed the same way. Sorry, but it still goes on. If the organizations are compensating the helpers, then the helpers are just making more $$. Not all of them, of course - some of them have ethics -but it still goes on at some level, in some shows, trials, and breed surveys.

"It is a terribly hard battle when people refuse to see the value of this and write off a puppy with excellent potential for BOTH, because they don't want to "take a step back" in either conformation or work. In order to promote a better balance we NEED working and show homes to take the chance on the product/puppy of our years of research and planning. I for one would be more than willing to discount my puppy price to an excerienced working or show home, for the chance to show the positive progress that we are making." (djc) I wish more people felt this way. Think about it, with some generalizations for the sake of discussion. Working line litters often include in their advertisements - "for experienced homes only" or "preference given to experienced homes". Prices (talking average here) seem to be in the 1000-1500 range for a decent/good pup. Showline litters? Prices are over the top - I would venture that $2500 is average for a pup bred here, and can go way way up for a 'special' pup or import. There is a person looking to title a dog, experienced in SchH. Everyone knows that puppies can be a crapshoot anyway - hips, teeth, temperment, drives, etc etc. Small things can turn into disqualifying faults in the conformation ring, but won't stop a nice life in sport. Chances are, the person can actually see the working dogs work, whereas the show dogs might only be seen gaiting (with an occasional bite at training, if close) So...spend $3000 on a pup with no guarantee that it will either conform to the standard OR work well, having more than likely not seen the sire and dam work much outside of training (if even that), OR spend $1500 for a dog that will more than likely work well and still fit within the standard (remember, the standard says even a G is OK), and have access to see the sire and dam actually trial. Chances are, unless you have a SchH enthusiast that is also addicted to showing, the experienced SchH home will spend half the $ and take their chances with the working line pup.SO, from the start, you have a strong tendency for experienced handlers to wind up with working line dogs. No suprise there....BUT if showline breeders want to start showing all the working drives that they are producing, I seriously think they need to make it more attractive for experienced homes to have their pups. I think djc has a good point with that post. Breeders are afraid to take a step back in either direction, but looking at the bigger picture, is it really a step back? Interestingly, I have seen some really nice working showlines that are many times SchH3 and actually trial regularly - but they are considered to be just "OK" conformation-wise. The ones I am thinking of are HOT, raised from pups by experienced handlers that truly enjoy working their dogs and going out to trial. They support other club with entries. I don't know that any of them have been to a national level, but they WORK and do it better than the 'working dogs' that are also in the trials. I think one of the key factors is getting a solid dog in the right hands, and that is harder to do in showlines, for many reasons.

AlabamaK9, I am not faulting you, I understand perfectly where you are coming from (and that is why I "have people" ;o)). You on the other hand were faulting VA dogs for not competing in top level SchH sport. And your view on this is shared by a wide audience. But why do you expect something of others that you are not willing to do yourself? That is the point I was trying to bring across. Top SchH dogs doing shows vs Top show dogs doing SchH. Not so easy when you have to look at it from both angles... LaPorte, though the thought is very good, the difference in price has little bearing. C'mon, especially guys will go out of their way when it comes to spending for their hobby or obsession. Not all pups are priced so far apart either. There are working line breeders in the US who get the same price as top show line pups, and there are many show line breeders who do not charge more than the average working line breeder. In Germany the difference in price certainly is not an issue. Its the ingrained opinion that has formed over the last 30 some years: "blond" dogs are lesser dogs on the SchH field. I placed a promising show pup with a working line trainer last year. First just to raise him. The original plan was that he would then be placed with a show handler and shown after he turned one, then back for titling over the winter, and then we see if he has what it takes to continue trialing or showing. When this fellows own really good working dog got injured and he uttered the words to me: "darn, here I have a really good dog sitting at home and it has to be a show dog...", it made me smile. So we decided that he will keep the dog for trialing. As long as he feels he is getting somewhere the dog will not be sold or placed with another trainer, or shown (as I said above, can't do both) other than what he needs for KKL but he can do that himself (quote: "he moves really well on his own, he does not need ring training" - sigh!). The option to keep the dog never really occurred to him. When he showed up for work with that dog the first time at his club it was chuckles abound. Chuckles have subsided now. A few more deep ingrained working line folks converted. Well, almost. It is not the money, its the preconceived notion that one "type" is better suited than the other. The just ok dogs you are referring to are just ok because their show talent has never been properly dealt with. Put any of these dogs with a show trainer for proper conditioning and training and grooming and handling and they would paint a very different picture. Like the supermodel without her make-up and all. You might overlook her in a crowd. And where does it say that the dogs have to be top V. "Just" V is still quite an accomplishment. V means "excellent", I think that gets overlooked too often. Many good working line dogs BTW never get the show rating they could get because the owners are too lazy or ignorant to bother. When a working line dog all of the sudden excells, the owners start to scramble and aks around what is needed to upgrade the G to an SG or the SG to a V, and the KKL2 to the KKL1. Intersting how these little bits can suddenly gain on importance then and not before. Hmmm....

I agree with you, really...maybe I didn't explain myself so well... As far as the "just OK" comment - the few dogs that I am thinking of were V dogs, but not typey show dogs that would be winning or placing high in a Seiger show. Thank you for reminding people that V means Excellent, because it is often frowned upon as being "just a V". SG is still "Very good", and even G is acceptable for breeding as per the SV. The showline folks criticized these particular dogs for their "just OK" (albeit V) conformation, and god forbid that anyone would breed to them, as they never placed high in the ring. It seems more popular to breed to a higher placing show dog that no one has seen work in this country, which somehow doesn't make alot of sense to me... The supermodel analogy is great. As for the price and owners - I am not talking about top trainers, just people who have some experience and know how to title a dog to a 3. Sooooooo many novice people buy showline dogs, while breeders of working lines seem to really hesitate to sell working pups to novice homes. If someone is really interested in the sport for sport's sake, they will gravitate to the working lines for alot of reasons - price being a small factor, perception (image) is another, and being able to see the stud and/or dam actually work is obviously a big factor as well. I would hope that a top trainer can recognize a good dog, regardless of whether it is "show" or "working" (and there are some in both lines), but, as you point out, there is a preconcieved notion or prejudice that is out there. Hate to say it, but the same thing happens at shows - see a working dog in the ring, and many people jump to the conclusion it should be last place. Well, I have seen some really nice structure in working dogs, along with some good ring training and handling (yes, preparation counts, even if it is a show), and on occasion it does actually get rewarded in the ring with placings ahead of 'show' dogs, not just a V rating. Scandalous. To me, a good dog is a good dog, and correct structure is correct structure.