Breeding/training goals - Page 1

I would like to get some feedback from you trainers and breeders about your goals as a trainer and as a breeder. How do you feel both trainers and breeders compliment each other? Who carries the most weight or are they on equal ground? I personally feel that at this moment in time, a breeder has more weight. I do believe there are some awful breeders and their poor breeding choices are starting to show in the work. I have personally seen some stronger and harder working show dogs than working dogs and I do believe the working enthusiasts need to tighten ship or the beloved show dogs will make a frontal entrance, if they have not done so already. I do recommend that visiting with guys like Steve Hause and Steve Miller you will see some of what I am talking about. JMHO

"I have personally seen some stronger and harder working show dogs than working dogs" Prok9s - This sounds scary! Explain what you mean by this. Are you speaking of workability? Find it rather hard to believe because I've seen the lowest drive working lines that had more drives and courage than some show lines even while asleep. LOL Is this view indicative of your club you're in or are you speaking of your view after watching both club level trials as well as larger trial? On the topic of breeding, I think breeders do have to focus more on breeding solid strong dogs instead of breeding "nice papers". Nice papers don't produce nice working dogs. Of course ask most breeders what they breed for and you'll probably get the typical vague answers - drive, temperament and solid nerves. Personally I would like to see this a good share of social aggression. A good share will suffice especially considering a lot of helpers appear to prefer play/prey protection over the more serious type of protection work. This is kind of hard to explain but a recent seminar I hosted shed some light on how some of the dogs and handlers were used to the prey bark, bite and run with the sleeve vs. more pressure being applied and testing a little more of what the dog(s) could actually handle. Some clubs don't train like this, hence a dog that may show a little more than the norm in aggression may not be treating with endearment :-) Getting back on topic... Also working line breeders have to try to be more responsible in placement of their pups. Naturally some people are going to say they will work the pups they buy from you and circumstances prevent that (s#*% happens). But to sell to just anyone simply because they send a deposit isn't my ideal of a responsible breeder. Those types of instances have a lot to do with why pups are return, sent to the animal shelter or attempt to snip a kids fingers off. So breeders do need to get more responsible there. Puppy/Dog Buyers (consumers) hold some blame too. They would prefer a podium sired dog not knowing the quality of the pup over a less popular breeding which may include solid pups with better drives and better candidacy for working. So buyers should be more cognizant of that before just looking over the "average" (as they think) litter for the super produced litter sired by podium and/or popular dogs with little proven production for good working progeny. I know I went on a tangent but thought I would share some insight on what I like to see in a breeding, and how puppy owners and clubs have some responsibility on this.

LuvczechDawgz: Thanks for the reply. To answer your question, it is from witnessing both club and national events. I do agree with your entire reply, your reply was very knowledgable and correct this is the problem that we see with the breed. The way things are going it will probably continue to be a problem. There are genetically flawed animals at these big events and the sad thing about my statement is these same dogs are winning. I consider myself old school, and would rather have some of the stronger show dogs than the weak workingline dogs. I tell you I have seen some very, very strong show dogs, and many, many weak working dogs. I do not think all working dogs are weak, but you can count the ones that are not. Maybe we can get together at the nationals, if you are attending, and go over some of what I have said at a national event. I will probably photograph the event. Thanks again.

Interesting... You seem to want to validate a reason to go show vs. working. You are old school yet you'd rather see the strong show dogs? You lost me there. What does old school have to do with wanting show lines? Remember the breed originated as a working breed so old school doesn't really translate to show line. What area do you train in? I'd like to try to get this same glimpse you are getting on seeing more stronger show dogs over working dogs. Also do you own working or show dogs? I'm just curious if this is an issue of being biased or real observation.

What Prok9s is talking about is a group of people that have found a consistent way to train those conformation line dogs with above average working ability to perform as well as many working line dogs. It's a combination of having some good genetic material from the conformation line that consistently produces work, coupled with the right training. The results are looking pretty good. If you would like, e mail me and I'll send you a couple short clips of one of a few young conformation line dogs they are training. In one video there's a nine month old puppy on the ground in one frame and on a trial sleeve in the next, full grip and taking a stick hit you can hear on the video. Judge for yourself. That's not to say that one or two dogs set a trend. But there's more, many more. There are conformation line dogs that do well but you need to know where they are. To get back to the question. Breeding programs vary from breeder to breeder as each breeder decides what they feel the characteristics of the German Shepherd should be. There are some that bred numbers, some that breed pedigrees, some that breed results, some that breed dogs and some that are really not sure what they are breeding. The breeders cover the spectrum. This is not necessarily a bad thing as not everybody wants one type of German Shepherd. There seems to be all types that want a GSD. The combination is endless as are those that are looking for different examples.

To answer your question name 10 VA dogs of today, and name 10 VA dogs from the past, and your analogy will be completed. Thanks

Interesting... Well VA of the early 70's and early 80's certainly could work. I can't much of what I have seen lately. Most of it was prey/play biting and certainly nothing serious but to each his own. Just wasn't what I was looking for. Show lines have their place. Just not in my yard ;-) I still think think you're quest is to add some merit to the fact that perhaps NOW you can find a good working showline but I'd willing to bet my life that finding strong showline doing serious protection work will be twice harder than finding one similar from working lines. But back to your topic since none of my commentary is needed. But I gave my input already.

Dog1 - Feel free to send me a link or file to these examples you ahve lawilliamsla@hotmail.com

Finding a good working showline is difficult. There's probably a hundred to one if not more. The same can be said for V rated working line dogs. For every V rated working line dog there are hundreds of V rated show dogs. No big news here. Some breed for conformation, others work, and some the Golden Middle. If your goal is the Golden Middle,,,, you have two chioces. Breed a V rated working line dog and go for structure while preserving the work, assuming there are desirable working line dogs that have the structure to progress the breed, or take a dog with structure and breed to improve the work. There are only a handfull of dogs that have the opportunity to improve on what their lines lack while maintaining what they are. They are out there, you just have to find them. The concept to understand is there are excellent examples of both show and working line dogs. When it comes to breeding, you have to know what you want and where to get it.

Remember this is just my opinion and I am training a working line dog. I went to the sieger show in Pittsburgh for the protection work. At that time my dog was 9 months old. While there were a few dogs there that were real dogs in the bite work there was a larger number of dogs that did not want to engage the helper. Went half hearted to the helper. After I got a program I was watching the working bitches. What I saw was not in my opinion pretty. Some dogs were running off the field when the helper barley started to raise the stick. These were Sch 3 bitches. It made me wonder how these dogs attained that level. So in closing my answer to the person starting this thread is this Bring em on. When I see these dogs at the nationals or a club event if they are as you say I will give these dogs there well earned praise. I love this breed wheather they are Black and Red or working line as you say. But for now I will stay with the working lines. Well do you recall I mentioned the 9 month old working line dog I refered to. At 9 months he went to the helper harder and faster and gripped better than a large % of the show dogs that day.