Breeding/training goals - Page 3

Forgot to add --i bred this male to my Larus V. Batu daughter -- four of their offspring in the last litter are doing Rings Sport !! not to bad for the show line .. or is it?? --

People isolated cases are great to hear but we're hopefully speaking of the majority here and that's why we are mentioning or asking the goals of both show and working line breeders. Of course there will always be an exception. But perhaps showline breeders are going "back to their roots" and looking equally for confirmation and workability. I haven't seen it but it could be possible. On another note, I saw less than mediocre dogs at clubs I were in feeding the dog the sleeve and playing this game of tug of war with the dog with the sleeve yelling "WOW! He's nice" and I'm thinking "WOW! You're smoking!" Someone mentioned above about SchH3 dogs running off the field at the mere sight and touch of a stick. This just adds value to what I am speaking of in the fact that breeders bred this junk and some trainer helped this junk get this title.

ALPHAPUP, I will let you do the honors. By the way, we can have the same assumptions at big trials when some of the really good working dogs leave the field or blind, or stress out and become very out of control. I am a German Shepherd dog purist and love the breed to no end, but there are certain bloodlines of show dogs who will bring it, this is not an assumption, these are the facts. Once working dog breeders start considering nerve, courage and fighting instincts again, they will no doubt overwhelm the show dogs once again. I don't see that happening anytime soon, so some show dogs have merit.

ALPHAPUP. Not to discredit your recent statement about the 4 doing Ring Sports but how well are they doing? I'm sure some could say well my Sieger "Batu" produced many V rated SchH3 dogs. Are these the same ones being run off the field? that question isn't to you just figuretively speaking As for the protection side of things I know of a half showline/half working line bitch that would bite her shadow if it got close to her. The owners rave how "civil" she is. The dog is nothing short of a deranged nerve bag that would chomp her tail off it it swatted near her. LOL On a more serious note, we're straying somewhat off the subject and getting into a showline vs working line conversation instead of getting concrete answers on breeding goals and how they coorelate with what we are seeing in today's GSDs and how training and trainers play a role in that as well. Hopefully we'll get back on topic here

"Once working dog breeders start considering nerve, courage and fighting instincts again, they will no doubt overwhelm the show dogs once again" WHAT??? ummm perhaps you have to be reminded that working line breeders tend to look at this much more than the average working line breeders. Stack 100 showline dogs up alongside 100 working line dogs and tell me which one has better nerve, courage and fighting instinct. Phew!!! I find this quite comical coming from showline experts when showline breeders put so little effort into those things. Not all of them focus only on looks but MOST of them surely don't focus on courage and fighting instincts either. What is going on here? Maybe this is a late April Fools Day but I'm guessing this topic is really about disgruntled showline owners who feel the need to defend their dogs or selection of dog. Great! Go right ahead. You chose him or her for a reason and I commend you for going with what you like But to remotely think you see more showline dogs with courage, fighting instincts and better nerves still has me ROFLMAO!!!! Be realistic here. Get back to the topic because this leads to a non-related argument

I am certain that a VA dog from the 70s can also be produced today. It takes knowledge, and also ego dropping, a bit of luck, a non sarcastic approach, with help from both sides, working and show, to produce the 70s VA dog.

A Ger,and Shepherd dog "purist" who is ever so fond of showline. Isn't that hypocritical? Showline breeders were are you? What are you folks breeding for these days? Do tell.... Working line breeders we need your insight too. Where did Molly run off to?

No doubt they can be produced PROK9s But that doesn't seem to be the goal of today's showline breeder (overall) Remember VA dogs like Bernd Lierberg, Anderl Vom Kleinen Pfahl, Mutz von der Pelztierfarm? Those are a few example of solid VA dogs that worked and had very good influence on the working line dog now. Glen Huhnegrab in recent years but trying to find one in the last 10 years is like one in a million

TYPO: Meant Cliff vom Hühnegrab

Re: Seiger show protection tests in America - I would venture to say that there is some serious cramming that goes into getting many of these dogs 'ready' enough to pass and advance to the conformation portion. I agree that the bitework is pretty embarrassing in general. I sometimes wonder how much of it is the dog's genetics, or lack of preparation. Having worked with both showlines and working lines, I see a big difference in the attitudes of the owners, whether they are kennel dogs or owned "privately". It seems to me - from MY experience (and feel free to share otherwise) that showline breeders often buy a dog based on a stacked photo, letters behind the name, a pedigree, and hearsay on the dog's 'drives'. The dog is imported, and not consistently worked - just shown. In the case of a female, often she is repeatedly bred. The Sieger Show gets closer, and they work the parts for the performance test, so that the dog can actually "show" at the big event. Honestly, how many fully titled showline imports ever repeat the titles over here, when people can actually see the dog work? Not many, in my experience. This leads me to question how the dog was actually titled in the first place, or if it is ever being worked in this country (unless you call producing puppies 'work'). It seems that working line people and breeders like to WORK their dogs, and will be happy to go out and compete. In order to do that, they TRAIN for trials consistently. People that get working line dogs get them because they enjoy the WORK. I think you find way more novice owners in showlines. To me, getting an opinion of a dog's drives (or lack therof) from a Seiger show is ridiculous. I want to see a dog actually work all 3 phases, full routines. 2 bites - good OR bad - just doesn't say alot IMO. I do agree that there ARE people out there that are producing nice looking dogs with good work - in both show AND working lines. You have to know where to look, and you have to also have the right owners/handlers.