Breeding/training goals - Page 2

Also confirmation is taken into considering when I breed. But it's certainly not the #1 trait I look for. Ideally I would like to see 1)More than ample drive (high but not hectic) 2) Steady nerves 3) Very good "real" aggression (i.e. seriousness for the man and eagerness to "kill the sleeve" 4) Correct confirmation (I'm not an extremist in this area - give or take a few) 5) Good health - very important too. A nice solid dog with lots of genetic health issues is no good. So finding out as much vital information on the bloodlines and any issues the dam/sire may be more prone too can be helpful when considering a breeding pair.

Dog1, I train with Steve House and Stateline and know what you are talking about. The results are impressive. The one disconcerting thing that I see is the lack of interest in showline dogs that can work. I have a litter almost ready to go from Enko v Moorbeck and have only sold one to a working home. At this point, it would seem that I have all the drives I bred for and yet the only interest is from pet homes. If working ability is so precarious in the showlines why isn't the phone ringing off the hook? Perhaps this is just a small indication of a much larger issue where the emphasis is on the pedigree and the stud du jour.

Dog1, I train with Steve House and Stateline and know what you are talking about. The results are impressive. The one disconcerting thing that I see is the lack of interest in showline dogs that can work. I have a litter almost ready to go from Enko v Moorbeck and have only sold one to a working home. At this point, it would seem that I have all the drives I bred for and yet the only interest is from pet homes. If working ability is so precarious in the showlines why isn't the phone ringing off the hook? Perhaps this is just a small indication of a much larger issue where the emphasis is on the pedigree and the stud du jour.

Sorry for the duplicate post. Must have hit submit twice.

The problem is the majority don't know where to look or what to look for. Reality is people buy dogs looking at pictures and listening to sales pitches. There appears to be only a few that want working ability enough to go out and get it. Another problem is the dog's work is not considered in the national placings. Like Rijkmus said. Many of the dogs performance at the sieger show level is not that impressive. Look at the results from the recent USA sieger show. How many of the VA group failed the bitework at previous sieger shows? Quite a few. So as long as the system is just pass/fail and a dogs performance is not a consideration, it will remain up to those watching the event to decide which dog is best for their program.

Dog1, excellent post and this is exactly what I see for myself as well. The "protection" work shown at the Seiger Shows is generally disgusting (to someone who values a strong working dog) with very few exceptions. And the exceptions are not generally in the top placings, because the work doesn't affect their placings.

I'm trying to see how this has a lot to do with BREEDING/TRAINING goals. Occassionally you will find nice good working showlines and many of them could never produce this. But I'm sure your opinion differs. I've coming from a sort of biased stance just like you all. Based on some of the dog's names given it's apparent that the ones stressing the points about the showlines are showline enthusiasts. I'm very much ONLY into working lines. I guess the question should be geared especially to showline breeders in what traits they look for when breeding. I'd be curious to see how many truthfully and honestly put much weight on workability. But back to what I said before. Workability in some folks eyes is a dog that simply bites a sleeve and wouldn't bite anything more. MORE POWER TO THEM! Again I want to see a dog that sees protection as protection and not a game of tug and war with frontal grips or one that "gargles" the sleeve with a full grip but no force (seriousness) behind it. Just my personal preference that coincides with what I look for in breeding stock and pairs. But the ultimate goals sits with the breeder and where they would like to see the majority of their pups (i.e. S&R homes, service/police work, sport field, agility trials, etc). Some breeding goals are only financial gain. This is another reason where the breed suffers. When your only focal point is money, less emphasis and thoughts go into having a solid breeding program that produces nice working prospects. But then again some folks aren't looking to breed working prospects. They want the nice pretty (so they think) red/black dog that prounces nicely around the circle with super angulation, superb structure, jaw dropping pastern and award winning withers. I'm being somewhat sarcastic but you get my point.

Several interesting statements, 1) when it’s about $$$ the breed comes second 2) based on the performances we see at a SS, how did some of these dogs attain their titles If someone does not want a dog with good nerves and balanced drives, perhaps they should think about a dog other than a German Shepherd. What good are looks (perception is everything) if the dog does not have solid health and courage?

sometimes it is awkward for one to enunciate -- but i do understand the point PROk9 is making -- and if you can see what he is talking about it -- his point would be very clear --for the record --never met him/her ... but i can tell you ---- i have what he describes , and why he compares -- my GSD ... show line with some working lineage -- 10 months old --doing apprehension work on a bite suit -- no not trained in SCH with a helper -- there was protection defending the handler , guards escapes and stick hits ,!! this dog was never pushed --- he just had it -- would tear through a door for his bite tug or kong but simiolarily totally filled with self control -- does all bite work/prtoection work and obedience without collar -- someone from germany , me saw this dog at 2 years old and desired to place him the the Bundesseigerprugung in germany -- the dog has V rated structure .. not SG - but V...for this gs --i wouldn't even consider doing Sch with him -- it would be a waste of his talent !! my point -- is that PROk9 has a very very valid point -- BTW who do you think sold me him as a pup ??

Oh and the biggest rebuttal line I have received from showline fanatics is: "Well this is a sport. Dogs will aggression are not what we need. We're in a time now where a dog like that is not needed, blah,blah,blah,blah,yap,yap,yap,yap" GIVE ME BREAK!!! if the dog has to be fed a sleeve and he's clinging on to it with the dear life of his front teeth he isn't doing protection. Translation: That's not work people NO - protection isn't the only avenue the GSD was meant to be used in but Schutzhund does include a phase called protection NOT tug or war or feed Saddledback Softie the sleeve. Showline breeders need to put the same emphasis VA breeders put in early years in their breeding program - WORKABILITY + GOOD CONFIRMATION. Not just workabiity Working line breeders need to step more to the plate too especially here in North America where everyone thinks they had the meanest, baddest, most impressive dog that is suitable for any bitch out there. There's no way one stud compliments EVERY female. Breeders here are too busy "jabbing and stabbing" one another over who has the best stud and better brood bitches, they could care less to get input on how a particular breeding turned out with a particular stud that may in fact enhance their own breeding program. Breeders can't learn everything at home either. They can boast about breeding 20,000 litters yet have never worked one or held one back for future breeding stock. How do you know what you are producing? How can you have some consistency if you don't keep up with this or having all the pups you sell in pet homes never to be worked? Just makes no sense. But the first thing they yell is "Oh I've been breeding for 5,000 yrs. I know my stuff" Well the GSD surely isn't getting better as a working breed so the "veterans" are missing something here.