Old VA's vs New VA's - Page 5

The Captain was a visionary, a man who understood the most special characteristic of this unique breed - the will to serve. Great post, Mike Russell!! Thank you.

Sumo, you wanted to know what I meant when I stated that the type of movement was a matter of taste. When I made that statement I meant total movement of the undercarriage with the back. Essentially-the whole package-not just the topline and not just the undercarriage. I do believe that this whole package is not as good as it was in the past for many of the dogs. In my opinion many modern V and VA show-line dogs can move with a relatively smooth topline and can cover a lot of ground with each stride but if one watches the undercarriage it can appear to be jerky and not smooth. Hence the exaggerated "climbing" motion of the front legs and the quick choppy movement of the lower rear legs. (I believe that Preston spoke exactly of this type of motion). It's as if too much effort is required during the quick trotting of the dog. The "climbing" motion of the front legs delivers much of the "coming to" look of the modern show-line dog. Now, some people like this type of undercarriage motion and that is why I use the word "taste". At Sieger shows I have watched dogs moving like this and noticed that many spectators would comment "Oh, watch those legs move!" That is what exites them, but causes me to have concern for all of the energy consumed by lost motion. I like Yasko's build and movement and I did not mean to say that he was not built to trot all day. I really think he is one (1) of the nicest VA dogs in a long time. I also know that your original question was mangled a bit by some of us-probably starting with me and my mention of the Belgian Malinois for suitability for work. I agree with Jantie that there should be only one (1) type of show such as the Universal Sieger competition where the final choice is determined by correct and thorough drive, correct structure and movement, and finally eye appeal. But as was said above the market will determine which dogs produce more progeny and that cannot be completely controlled by any of us. I guess today one can essentially purchase the type of GSD they want from a menu. There should only be one (1) dog. Ulli, I agree with you about the method behind the Kirschtental dogs. The working spirit and structure is being preserved while producing a very nice dog. That is the way it should be. And, I'll now shut up myself on this subject. Much good discussion. Bob-O

I think we need dogs like this again. My dad owned a son of him back in 1972, and he was the total dog! VA1 Marko vom Cellerland http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/137.html

Mike, Blitzen You know what You make a post like that and people go on talking about colour and gait etc. They don't care. I think there aught to be a section of this forum where we can all talk about working ability to our hearts content and no-one will ask what colour your dog is. Sorry Sumo I won't butt in again

MikeRussell, I second the great post and thank you. That is why we have our GSD's. I think our GSD's are beautiful though many would probably disagree.

Gooner, I often wonder if more attention were paid to breeding dogs with that will to serve that there might not be less need for forceful training methods like ecollars, helocoptering, choking to the point of losing consciousness, and other methods too cruel to speak of without feeling nauseated. I doubt the Captain would have endorsed the breeding of GSD's that needed to be hung and choked half to death in order to be "taught a lesson". He would probably not think much of the "trainers" who subscribe to those methods either. I believe we have lost our way and done a terrible disservice to the breed.

To Sumo. Thanks, but I might be wrong person to ask, as the person you probably should have asked died back in 1996. I honestly guess you¿ll find more experienced breeders on this board than me. But to my mind, I personally liked the dogs 15-20 years ago more, not only our own dogs but in general. And looking at dogs having influenced the further development of the german shepherd, I guess you¿ll find more important dogs in the 60¿s, 70¿s and 80¿s. Please excuse me, if I might be a bit narrow-minded in this question, as my stepfather was the breeder of some of them. Regards Micke

Trying to keep on track here.. Blitzen, I agree, I squirm sometimes when I see some corrrections applied. I am from a small club and we are not scared to openly discuss this sort of thing. Mostly people (members) aren't aware they are getting harder on their dog and back down a bit with some support from others in the group. Wienerau Funny, when I look at pedigrees of todays working stock I see some great dogs reappearing all over the place. I wonder if it's nostalgia to think they were so much better than todays dogs.

Blitzen, as usual you make a good point. Trainability is everything to the value of a working dog. In my view there must be a total devotion of the GSD to his master (and vice-versa) and a good balance between prey drive, defensive reaction when pushed beyond a certain threshold (a relatively high threshold suggesting extreme stability and calmness), and extreme intelligence with good senses (vision, hearing, smell), and agility, endurance (often means at least mild to moderate engles at both ends and balanced movement, not needed to be extreme to be acceptable, and with proper pigment (white or too much white marking makes the dog unsuitable for work in many usual roles). Dark black or dark grey or dark red pigment with rust, brown, gold or red trimmings is fine as long as it is relatively rich (too much pigment dilution is allegedly linked to deficient vigor and health, very light nails a no no). The hardest dog I ever owned was from Larry Filo's working stud dog who was V rated in show (a beautiful truly remarkable crossover dog Canto, who Larry was proud of for his producing ability). As hard, confident and bold as this dog was he was friendly to our kids, young children, visitors, our cat, small dogs and even played with wild rabbits in the back yard, allowing them to run freely without hurting them. And this dog was rock solid in every way and he loved obediance, he loved to work and to please, and he was very healthy in every way. This remarkable working line dark sable gave us 10 years of companionship and service as our house dog and good friend. And since I have bought showline dogs very close to being this good in mind, although my sg1, schII dog from Batu Kennels is more "patrol" oriented, likely because of his excellent training, but just as good around kids, our cat and visitors and is totally devoted to us. Bottom line, when you get a GSD with great temperament ie trainability and a desire to work, please and serve his master it is a great honor and blessing. This kind of quality of mind is unmistakable when one observes it in their GSD and is always praiseworthy, and it matters not if the dog is from working lines or showlines. It is always the quality of the individual animal.