Old VA's vs New VA's - Page 1

I was going through BSZS results on this site since 1899 till date. There is distinct difference between the anatomy of Old va's and new va's. Certainly this is for the improvement of working ability in regard to movement. But if we see va's in 80's like Uran,Dingo,Quando, etc. the topline and overall appearence so much different from the present dogs that is Ulk,Rikkor,Bax, Ando, Visum. Now the question is does the older va's have similar kind of movement as the presesnt va's? As I have seen present va's only in video and the movement is superior. Or has the movement improved since then. I am only considering the movement here because it is what matters most as the GSD is mainly bred for it. To elaborate my point look at Jack vom Trienzbachtal and Ando Altenbergerland so much of difference. Do both have equally great movements? Has the way the GSD is stacked today and earlier changed? Can it be the cause of the difference we see in topline basically?

I would like to add to my above question. Hats off and many many thanks to all those breeders known and unknown who has contributed in improving the breed standard and bringing it to this level. From somewhat pet quality looking dogs ( by today's satandard).

Which is the oldest kennel still active any guesses? I have seen Holtkamper see, Batu, Adeloga in very old pedigree's.

The German show lines are bred to have the "coming to" look. The German showline currently represents a radical departure from dogs of the past, as you have noted. It does make the dog appear smoother in motion; but does its really help the breed? The type of movement desired is a matter of taste that has changed over time, and it really does not matter whether we are discussing German show lines or American show lines. The original type of dog is long lost. The GSD is naturally a trotter-not a runner. The toplines of the current show lines are more of a running dog topline rather than a trotting dog topline. Is the modern show line capable of trotting all day as in herding or guarding duties? Probably not. Are they more beautiful than the dogs of the past? Not necessarily, in my opinion. Is the breed better for it? Again, not better in my opinion. The show lines represent a serious departure from the original intent of the breed and the excellent dogs of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. I guess that all races of dogs bred for the show ring have incurred the same thing. But, ask yourself why the Belgian Malinois is nowadays such a popular dog now for working; and why has it replaced the German Shepherd for so many working assignments? I venture to say that it has not yet been bred to death for the sake of the show ring and it has not lost its character and spirit and hopefully never will. Not that I am a huge fan of Malinous-I think they are fantastic dogs to watch at work-my love is the German Shepherd dog. I think the show lines need to come back to the type of build they had twenty (20) or thirty (30) years ago, or maybe I am now old enough to be just a bit nostalgic or a bit crabby about it. But, that type of turnaround will require the breed standards to be redefined and strictly enforced. And even if this happened it would take many years. At least there are still some successful DDR and Czech lines still viable, and these dogs look good and have retained the ability to work. I don't own any of these lines, but I hope that the dogs of ten (10) to twenty (20) years from now will resemble these lines, rather than the current top show lines. When you look at a beautiful show line male such as VA Yasko Farbenspiel-now he is something to marvel. But would Yasko stand a chance herding goats or patrolling a compound all day-I really can't say. Guys, don't beat me too hard for saying this-but I really think we need to turn back the clock thirty (30) years or so. Bob-O

Sumo---Quoting your blog: "Certainly this is for the improvement of working ability in regard to movement."~~~ "Has the way the GSD is stacked today and earlier changed? Can it be the cause of the difference we see in topline basically?" Take a look at this dog and then you tell us what you think the real answer is: SZ1826354

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/12424.html

Thanks both of you for you replies. I would like to ask Bob-O few things, What do you mean by movement is matter of taste? I think ideal movement is to travel a certain distance in less effort. That is less steps are required to cover the distance. Which means a dog with near ideal movement require fewer steps to cover certain distance than a dog who does not have good movement. Please can you name the excellent dogs from 5o's,60's70's? And why are they excellent according to you? Have you seen them personally or seen their video? Because I think unless we don't see dog move it is hard to give opinion about him. The remarks you made about Yasko: Why are you in doubt about his working ability? I think all top dogs need to pass the endurance test that is walking for 10 miles or kilometers(I ma not sure about the diatance)without stopping. and then performing obidience commands. I think it is good enough to prove the stamina and work ability of the dog. What about the HGH titles? Do these dogs also can not work as you specified. I think even malinois can not work as a herding dog full day long. as they are not trotting dogs. Atleast that is what appears from their structure. Yes they can be very good protection dog. SUPER-DAVE your photo was sort of eye opener. Really lot depends on how the dog is stacked. One really can not make any opinion about the dog unless seen in flesh and blood and in motion. Those who think of buying looking at the photo BEWARE.

Bob-O makes some very good points and knows what is occurring in the breed. Perhaps I am mistaken, but, it is my own personal belief that the dog's under Dr.Rummel's rule when he was SV President were substantially better than today in almost every way except heavy presence of red pigment in previously tan areas (although there was some of this then). Proportions were better (shorter backed dogs, more correct angles at both ends, not so much toes in at the rear, or toes out at the front, longer better croups without being steep and no sickle hocks or over-angulation in the rear). Color was very good in many, but not as good as now. I think many dogs at that time had more overall vitality, were better ligamented, more agile and more dry (of course perhaps folks at that time may have had more time and motivation to condition their dogs). Interestingly, Dr. Rummel instituted a "no roachback" edict when he started noticing upward curvature of the back. After this edict, no more such dogs were highly placed again during his presidency, and most stopped breeding and showing them. Example, Natan Pelztierfarm, double Sieger was a sensational animal in every way in his own right(perfect proportions + proper straight back). But also since these times there have been other awesome dogs such as Uran Wildsteiger Land and Fanto Hirschel who were very close to the standard if not exactly there. There are always exceptions and many small GSD breeders will not breed or show roach backed dogs. Batu Kennels is one large kennel that has it's own ban on roach backs and there are a number of others. I have always viewd the breeding of these roaches as an overcompensation to the weak back trait coming from Rolf Onsnabrucker Land. There are certain select dogs now being bred from working lines with absolutely perfect temperaemnt and proportions and the same from show lines. And yes, there are the occasional show line V and VA dogs who have as good a temperament as any top placing Bundesseiger Profung dogs.

Howdy... Sumo, u always come up with something interesting ! Its pretty cool to see what a GSD looked like in the old days ! Have they been better or healthier back then, more able of working ? I doubt it.... When i started as a paramedic peopel died of "old age" - period. Nothing wrong with it. Not even ten years later nobody died of "old age " anymore, they had a stroke, a heartattack etc.... What i¿m trying to say is, everything seemt to be easier(back then) because we didnt know better! Now we can detect every- and anything with sophisticated techniques and "know" so much more. Did it chance the ultimative outcome - nope- peopel are still dying ! Same deal in dogs, has there been HD in dogs of the old days, u bet ! But what did they do back then whenthey detected that the dog was walking funny or had pain.... they took the dog around the house and shoot it! Ever heared about it again ? Nope. Do u believe 30- 40 years back someone cared about what adog gets to eat.... heck no, they got what was left over. Did they have great dogs back then, they sure did just as we do in our days.Yeep they do look different- a BMW from 1970 also looks different then one of 2006 ! Can a VA "SHOWLINE" work all day ? OH,OH Bob dont ask that someone who has competed in a event like that. Gee, running 10-15 rounds in a crowded , hot summer weather with peopel yelling, whistling all around you...if you are not in the best shape you might as well dont even start ! Bob i do agree with a lot of the stuff you say, but man, dont tell your statement to a MR. Füller (v. Kirschental)! Regards Ulli Dresbach

One more thing : If you have a " Showline dog " and you see the potencial of a " working dog" in it, and you train that dog accordingly what do u have then ? A " Show-Work Dog " ? My personell believe is that we have to get back to what we see in each single dog !Just because a dog is black & yellow does NOT mean he can not work ! Just because a dog is grey does not make it the ideal workingpartner ! Neverless, just because a dog is grey does not mean its an ugly dog, hell it just depends on from which standpoint you look at it !And , the biggest point, we have to realize the ability of the single dog, for they come in all varietys ! Regards Ulli