Old VA's vs New VA's - Page 4

Sumo It's the selection by eye that I object to. It weakens the breed. I don't think that the criteria for breeding, SchH1 and AD are enough protection for the breed ongoing and belive that if you really must show your dog you should be able to demonstrate it's working abilities to a far higher standard than what is currently required. Basically my opinion is that breed shows should be a bit of light hearted fun not the "be all and end all" that it currently is. Ulli I didn't say that I don't respect breeders that are not on my page. There are some honest breeders out there and there are plenty of crooks too. I don't know the breeders you know so how could I comment on them. However I would say that however well meaning someone is their actions CAN sometimes be against the best interest of the breed. Rather than put words into my mouth why don't you answer the question I posed "Would you respect me if you belived that what I loved doing was harmful to the breed" I'll repeat, I'm not out to wind people up but this debate is important.

Oh No No No NO, This discussion is going totally on different track as to Working line vs. Show Line. Originally I put the question purely comaparing VA'a of the eighties(Uran,Dingo,Quando) and VA's of taday ( Rikkor,Bax,Ursus,Larus). After so many answers still not got the reply. Everyone is talking of the dogs 50's,60's,70's. Does that mean all abovementioned dogs fall in same category.

Jantie, please send me an email again? I have somehow managed to lose your email address! BAH.

Sumo, I saw Natan Pelztierfarm in person at the Siegerhauptzuchschau in 1982. I also took movies and photos of him and many other dogs shown. When off lead I noticed that most of the VA dogs (and high V dogs) moved very correctly and smoothly without lifting in front (bending upward at the elbow), and without kicking up or sickle hocked in the rear (they had very good range of motion at both ends and opened up the rear hocks. Comparing this film to many subsequent VA and V dogs of late shows to me a decline in proper movement off lead (a tight lead can appear to corrects many movement problems temporarily). In 1982 I noticed no roachbacks and all the problems that come from that, and noticed few steep croups. I think the dogs were more athletic and agile (maybe just conditioned much better, I don't know for sure). I do know that their proportions were better in general. I have seen Yasko in person and the dog would have been worthy in 1982 and probably as good as Natan. I have seen movies of Ursus & Larus and feel that they are clearly worthy dogs, now or then. But there are sure a lot of roachbacks now, except for Batu Kennels and some select othefrs who have instituted a total ban on breeding and showing roachbacked dogs.

Sumo, to answer your question about movement now versus back then of 30 years ago. I would say in general movement is no better now. And a there have been very good moving dogs from all years and now too. I saw movies of Uran moving at 11 years old and his movement was as good as any other dog at any age. Natan pelxtierfarm's movement was very good. I never saw Fanto Hirschel but people I have confidence in who saw him win Sieger twice said he was a very correct dog in every way, including movement. Good balanced movement with good range of motion of the limbs front and rear is ver important,, especially for working dogs, since if they move properly, they use less calories, and do not tire out as easy as a dog with mediocre movement (unless the dog is very light boned and scrawny--which is unpleasing to the eye for a person who knows correctness and quality (and many working folks demand good looks too). Roachbacks are very incorrect and spoil movement. Dogs from the 1980s in general paced when walking due to their short backs & short loins (proper proportions), shifting tio a gait at higher speeds(now much fewer gait due to long backs and loins--there is an association with long backs and increases in lower leg lenth and overangulation in the rear, common today. The rear hocks in general are too long and harm movement compared to the 1980's. I know that food in Germany back in the 80's was very good for the dog's coat and health. There were often supplemented with tripe. But as I said before, I believe that there are always some very good dogs from both show lines and working and some that can do acceptably well in both zuchschau and profung (these cross over dogs are "TOTAL GERMAN SHEPHERDS" and are truly amazing).

Hello Preston, Thank you very much, cause you are the first person addressing the real question asked. Which dogs can you as TOTAL GERMAN SHEPHERDS. Also who do you think are roach backs from the lastest dogs, Bax,Rikkor? You mentioned rear hocks are long, do you mean Lower thigh instead?

Sorry to hijack your thread I'll withdraw and maybe take up a new thread Chris

" Good balanced movement with good range of motion of the limbs front and rear is ver important,, especially for working dogs, since if they move properly, they use less calories, and do not tire out as easy as a dog with mediocre movement (unless the dog is very light boned and scrawny--which is unpleasing to the eye for a person who knows correctness and quality (and many working folks demand good looks too). " This is what everyone quotes and says, and , yes important but NOT the most important thing in a working dog no matter what the lines. I have had dogs with varying degrees of correctness in type/conformation, drives/ temperament etc. Had a gorgeous moving bitch, very correct, floated when she trotted, but had mediocre drive. My not as nice male WAY outshone her in the working endeavors/fields due to his drive and love for the work. BOTH lived to 12. Difference is the male worked until he was 12, the bitch was retired at 5 due to lack of interest in the work/drive. I will ALWAYS choose a dog by temperament/drive/worth ethic first and conformation second. Does not matter HOW nice the conformation/movement is in a dog, if they don't have the drive/work ethic, they are useless as a working dog. So, now we have 2 separate lines of gsd's. The german showline that puts conformation/movement first and temperament/drive second. Most breeders believe they are combining the two to get thier golden middle. From my experience this is not what is happening and more and more I am seeing/working pretty dogs with very nice movement/conformation and mediocre drive. Working line have almost gone to the other extreme. For now you can still find some nice working dogs with great drive/temperament and nice conformation in the german showline and you can find the same in the working line. My experience (and I know I am not alone) is that you can find this dog much more consistently in the working line vs. the show line. AND, the conformation of a dog is very subjective to the eye of the beholder/judge/etc.

Showlines are following the SV breed standards. The purpose showline folks train Sch and continueously improve breed conformation is to show the SV judges that they are breeding dogs capable to performance versitle duties and also conforming the standards. Workline fellows should keep an open mind. No dogs are perfect. I seldom saw showline dogs could clear more than 4'. Yet I've infrequently seen workline dogs attractive other than wortking in trail field. If people only concern about work ability, they may as well get a laborer or a chimpanzee. Let's not forget that a GSD is a GSD beacuse it is noble and has those designated characters. A GSD should be a pet if necessary, it should not have to pump up whole day and always be preying.

Somebody summed up all of this a LONG time ago... "The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs." "The Shepherd dog is a service dog & must be bred as a service dog AND must only be judged as a service dog. With service dogs, suitability ranks higher than beauty." "The coloring of the dog has no significance whatever for service; our shepherd dog accordingly is not bred for color...although it cannot be denied that a good pronounced coloring improves the general appearance made by the dog." All are quotes by Max v Stephanitz