Old VA's vs New VA's - Page 3

Hello everyone, I originally placed the question regarding the ability (MOVEMENT) of older va's in comaprison with latest va's. I think my question is partly answered that working ability of new va's is kind of vanishing. Now the question is IS IT VANISHING BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN ANATOMY OR BECAUSE OF THE CHANGE IN SELECTION OF BREEDING LINES? Because today's breeding of dogs is still based on Uran and Quando and in some cases Mutz. Which finally comes down to Canto and Quanto. So does everyone of you think that breeding on Quanto and Canto lines has damaged the breed? Jantie you suggested working line dogs are far superior to show line does that mean working line dog is far better mover or is he good in protection,obedience and tracking(which to my knowledge are the tests for Sch). I like the point raised by Oskar1 that all kirschental dogs are show line and they are actually perfoming daily the work they are bred for that is herding. I have seen in one of videos Xitta Kirschental herding ships. Also to the best of my knowledge of anatomy I dont think working line dogs are that good mover or trotter ( which is needed for the herding dog) comapred to show line dogs. Because they are somewhat squarish with may be you can call a steep croup. Please correct me if I am wrong. This fact is also emphasised by Mr.Ricardo Carbajal. May be working line dogs have strong nerves needed to do protection and guarding work. Lastly please someone who has seen actually old VA's(Uran.Dingo,Quando,Mark) answer my question are they better movers or latest VA's(Rikkor,Ulk,Ursus,Larus,Hill) are better movers? Is stacking style different now and then?

Just compare, at what age do workingdogs do their first SchH 1 and how many times do they do SchH 3, a nice dog out of a showline has to have SchH 3 and Kkl. 1a before he turns 2 years otherwise everybody starts to wonder what¿s wrong with the dog (talking about Germany). Beside of that you have to train and show the dog permanently. Then the dog has to do the bitework on the BSZS in front of a really big crowd. I think everybody complaining of bad bitework on a BSZS of any dog should try out that once. To The Gooner, it might be right that some of the structurel/body changes in showline-breeding may don¿t be possitive to some work dogs have to do, talking about working-dogs. But still, I guess one shouldn¿t compare apples with pears, as we say here in Germany. Our grown up dogs easily gets over a two meter high fence if they want to. See I really love to see a dog doing a great SchH 3 and know my dogs will never do that work in this way (perhaps just because I/we don¿t work that hard for a top SchH 3 result, we have also had dogs doing 95 pts. on tracking, or being trained for FH in addition to their SchH), but I love even more to see a nice and impressive dog in a show. But I do accept people being more into working with their dogs, it¿s what they want and love to do and I have to accept and RESPECT that fact. And before the dicussion starts: who started this "war", I also know that there aren¿t only workin-dog people talking bad about showline-dogs, it¿s the same the other way round, too. I guess it would be a lot easier if everybody would start to treat each other with respect rather than blaming each other. To Oskar1: great example with Mr. Füller and his achievements, you could also name Ognjen Kapidzic who once had a top rated V-male at the BSZS that was a top workingdog, too.

Great insight to your post, Wienerau! As a result of this post, I went back and compared pictures of my first dogs(all showline) in 1982 and today. HUGE difference in their appearance. Stephen

Wow! Thanks for your reply. It is overwhelming that you took note of my Question. This thread was originally started by me . But now the discussion is going little of track.i.e. about working line vs. show line. My original question was "I was going through BSZS results on this site since 1899 till date. There is distinct difference between the anatomy of Old va's and new va's. Certainly this is for the improvement of working ability in regard to movement. But if we see va's in 80's like Uran,Dingo,Quando, etc. the topline and overall appearence so much different from the present dogs that is Ulk,Rikkor,Bax, Ando, Visum. Now the question is does the older va's have similar kind of movement as the presesnt va's? As I have seen present va's only in video and the movement is superior. Or has the movement improved since then. I am only considering the movement here because it is what matters most as the GSD is mainly bred for it. To elaborate my point look at Jack vom Trienzbachtal and Ando Altenbergerland so much of difference. Do both have equally great movements? Has the way the GSD is stacked today and earlier changed? Can it be the cause of the difference we see in topline basically?" Please wienerau I am very eager to raed your comments as you must have seen so many top dogs very close in your life than any other person on th planet? Also you are majorly responsible for guiding breeders to breed what modern GSD is. Please I am dying to read what you say about my original question.

Oh, don't get me going! I will never understand how a ROACH BACK is good for a TROTTING breed when it is MEANT for RUNNING breeds - the greyhounds. To me my non-roach (although she shows a tiny bit of 1 since 1 can't avoid it in Euro genetics now) bitch has a wonderful bouncy light on-her-toes gait with much gracefulness, whereas the roaches are pushing way too hard. To me they don't look "effortless", they look to be working to death. What other herding breed or any other breed outside greyhounds has roach backs? It makes no sense at all; hence I prefer working lines whose backs (and gaits) are more normal. I'm no expert but I think I can see the forest for the trees.

"The GSD is naturally a trotter-not a runner. The toplines of the current show lines are more of a running dog topline rather than a trotting dog topline. Is the modern show line capable of trotting all day as in herding or guarding duties? Probably not. Are they more beautiful than the dogs of the past? Not necessarily, in my opinion. Is the breed better for it? Again, not better in my opinion." The show lines represent a serious departure from the original intent of the breed and the excellent dogs of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. I guess that all races of dogs bred for the show ring have incurred the same thing. But, ask yourself why the Belgian Malinois is nowadays such a popular dog now for working; and why has it replaced the German Shepherd for so many working assignments? I venture to say that it has not yet been bred to death for the sake of the show ring and it has not lost its character and spirit and hopefully never will." Oh THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!

Wienerau "I guess one shouldn¿t compare apples with pears, as we say here in Germany." I couldn't agree more. The two "types" seem to be separate in the main. Malonso asked the question about the number of VA dogs that have SchH3 titles, well I'm not sure but I'd be very interested in the figures if you have them. "But I do accept people being more into working with their dogs, it¿s what they want and love to do and I have to accept and RESPECT that fact." Would you respect me if you belived that what I loved doing was harmful to the breed I wonder. My point is not to wind people up pointlessly but to state that I feel that the selection of a dog by visual criteria is harmful. I have full respect for a dog that will work whether or not is has the "correct" conformation or "gait". To all those who care about gait why not accept that the best criteria for the correct gait is whether or not the dog can do the work. How pointless is it to discuss the gait of a dog being good for working when you can simply let the dog work (or not) with whatever gait it's comfortable with. You can't tell if a footballer or boxer is any good by how they stand, skip and stroll about, why try it with dogs.

Gooner you said, How pointless is it to discuss the gait of a dog being good for working when you can simply let the dog work (or not) with whatever gait it's comfortable with. I would like to clarify this, I completely agree with you that if dog is working good it is pointless to discuss how he is gaiting. But it is imporatnt when it comes to show. Because in show you have to judge hundreds of dogs in one day and only criteria to prove his correct anatomy is his effortless gait. By that judge can distinguish between good dog and bad dog. You can not judge a single dog for full day to see if he has working capability. I think all the adult dogs have to pass the Gaiting test of 1o miles or 10 kms. as a minimum qualification for the rating. I think the dog who passes this test is good enough for working. lastly what about my original question which no one is answering decisively, Lastly please someone who has seen actually old VA's(Uran.Dingo,Quando,Mark) answer my question are they better movers or latest VA's(Rikkor,Ulk,Ursus,Larus,Hill) are better movers? Is stacking style different now and then?

Gooner, my knowledge of the english language is limited, so please let me know if i understood your last post wrong........ So you could not respect breeders that are not on the same page as you are......wow, thats a low blow ! I really dont know what route you are aiming for, ( and i¿m not sure if i want to know )but when iwas looking for a stud for my bitch i took all kinds of things in cosideration. Workingability, sound nerves, conformation etc.... And, before i forgett it, sure looked what titles are involved, SchH & show, it was a lot of work. Yes Gooner i agree with you, selecting a dog just for the looks is harmfull ! But to put it the way you did, is plain simply disrespecktfull against the most breeders i know. The breeders i know, strive to enhance the breed, i have not yet met one that stated :" I dont care how the dog works as long as it looks good !" What a bunch of ballony ! I just did the AD (20 kilometers on the bike, after that a short obidience. about 16 miles)with a showline, that was nearly untrained. Did he pass, sure did. Why didnt i hasitate to do this with a showline, because a healthy GSD should be able to do it, even without beforehand training. I do know dogs that were not able to do that, show &Workline ! Regards Ulli

Quote "like the point raised by Oskar1 that all kirschental dogs are show line and they are actually perfoming daily the work they are bred for that is herding" Don't often post here but wanted to say a few things. First, not all of Kirschental dogs are showline but it would be safe to say that MANY of the more recent dogs have a heavy influence of showline dogs in them. I have a Kirschental dog and I use my dogs regularly on my 70+ flock of sheep. Some of Karl's herding dogs (dogs that are not just titled in HGH but ones that were used by him on a daily basis when he was a full time shepherd) still have a very strong influence of the herding lines that go back to the OLD dogs (when there was not such a distinction between working/show lines) and many actually go back to WORKING lines. One just has to look at some of the working line pedigrees to see the influence of some of the Kirschental dogs (Uwe, Fenga etc). Many of Karl's dogs of late, are very much showline dogs with HGH titles. I suppose one could put them in the same category as the showline SchH 3 titled dog. THey are titled yes, but....do they actively compete in this feild for the 'top' working spot? I do believe as well, if you talked to Karl that he would tell you his 'heart' is very much still in the working line dog/pedigree. He bred to a top working dog several years ago with one of his bitches. Wish he would do that more. I started out with american line dogs, went to german (Kirschental) and LOVE this bred to the working line/DDR dog. That thus far is giving me my best working dogs. I have worked gsd's from all lines in herding and yes, there are some good dogs in all the lines, but the ones that show the most consistency are from the working line. I have worked many german showline dogs. Some I really like! Some have very poor drives and nerves (and yes, they are often also titled in SchH!!) and some are so stubborn/hard headed that they are useless to me. I have not found the same problems in the working lines (thus far). Now, what I do find in some working lines is WAY too high prey drive without the balance of the other drives. This is frustrating and often just too much work to make it worth while. THey only zone in on the sheep that is moving, don't see the flock as thier 'care' and don't have a strong work ethic to work the sheep as a flock. Overall though thier nerves are way better. GENERALLY speaking I feel that showline folk put way too much emphasis (this goes for the american line dogs and german showline)on movement. Yes, good balanced movement is a strength to the dog that is going to trot all day but it is not THE most important factor! There are traits that are way higher on my list for dogs working my flock.