Breeders & the $$$$$$ - Page 2

Well put, Ibraham!


I always cringe when I hear the term "betterment of the breed" -- for any breed -- because the term "better" is so subjective, and usually is tossed around as a justification for altering a standard in some way.

I think more, that sound breeding -maintains!- the breed's integrity; staying away from extremism of type, or selecting for one trait at the expense of others. It's the whole "bettering" thing via different interpretations that's resulted in splits between showline and workingline varieties in almost all breeds; and it has altered some breeds to the point where natural mating and whelping is nigh on impossible. I would definately not call breed-factioning, or an inability to reproduce on its own, better.

Bettering the breed implies changes to a standard. I mean, how would I make the GSD breed better? All dogs have flaws somewhere. A good breeding program seeks to find the ideal partner, and balance out the flaws.

Selecting for breeding stock based only on best traits is the first step towards kennel blindness, in my opinion. I'm not just talking about conformation. I think being overly focused on drive (without stability), or size (without conformation), or similar, can be just as detrimental; but in different ways.

Those are my views, anyway.

Well said Ibraham.

Congratulations on an excelleent subject and insight.  If a breeder breeds to sell all the pups, then there is only one motive for the breeding, and it is not improving any breed.  If he keeps one or more to further his/her breeding program, then one can say that he's looking at improving or establishing his kennel's bloodline.

IMPO, the GSD is a working dog where balance is more important than specialization and where even Show-dogs should be able to perform either in SchH, herding or some other discipline that shows the soundness of temperament to go along with the structure and physical abilities.

I do not want to buy a puppy from someone who is financially marginal and cannot afford to give these GSD's (aka black holes for money) everything they need.

I very happily paid Pharaoh's breeder for being so bold as to have paid a small fortune for his father and bought some very good females.  All with health certs and breed surveys.

I hope she does make $$$$$$ and keeps going.

I would not buy from a very large breeder because I believe that GSD's need a lot of personal attention.

Dog food and vets are very expensive.

God bless rich people because they need accountants like me.

Michele

Pretty good post, even without the usual slinging and mud throwing, that is pretty nice for a change.

All said is very balanced and basicly says it all. My believe is, if one just breeds because it can be done, not taking bloodlines, healthtests and titles, breedsurveys into consideration BEFORE he /she breeds their animals, they are only looking to make that $$.
A small breeder that only breeds 1-2 carefully thought out litters a year, will never even recover the amount of money spend on his animals, unless he/she charges astronomical prices for his puppys. If he /she does, he/she would be in it for the $$ aswell for my taste, but it is up to the buyer to decide wether or not he will pay the asked price. My experience is simple, with only 1 -2 litters a year, I never did cut the corner, heck it was always more like putting money on top.
The tricky part with " bettering the breed" is, we are dealing with living creatures, and if we are staying away (hopefully we will for a long time) from cloning, we are to a certain extant relaying on luck in our breedings. We can and should put together the best animals, with the best traits, but yet we will never know 100% what the outcome will be. My grandfather used to say ;
Put the BEST together, and HOPE for the best !
It would be hard for me personally to believe, that someone would breed a pair without the sincere hope that the pups would, to some extent, "be better" than their parents, or at least, to be as good as their parents. But I guess, and frankly I know, there are many of these out there aswell.

Thanks Ibrahim, for starting this thread.

Ulli

You are absolutely right Hima. I fully agree with you

There are almost as many reasons why people breed as there are litters whelped. In general, here is what I have seen.

1. The person who breeds for them self. These breeders have well established goals and feel they are capable of achieving them. Often they invest heavily their finances with little hope or thought of fully recovering. They keep what meets their goals and develop them fully. They sell the rest, all of whom have the very same excellent breeding that is put into the ones the breeder keeps.

2. The commercial breeder who also breeds with an eye towards his goals and puts every effort into producing a good product. They do not take short cuts. They have just found a way to profit from their efforts and also produce dogs that they develop.

3. The commercial breeder who only wishes to profit. Many times, short cuts may be taken by these. They do not breed for the future. Only what is popular and what profits them.

4. The "want to be", clueless commercial breeder. These see the prices being charged, look at the empty space in their yard and go for the gold. They have no knowledge or regard for what they produce. The highest achievement is when the check clears the bank.

JMO,
Rik

Rik - I have some additions.......

5. The pet owner who "just loves their pet" and wants to breed him/her so that they can have son/daughter. This owner doesn't necessarily have money on their minds. They may or may not understand bloodlines or about hips/elbow certifications or other health issues. After council, some will have their dogs checked, some will not. Most are well meaning - "my dog has such a wonderful temperament and qualities" the puppies will be great too.

6. The pet owner who wants their children to "experience" the miracle of birth. Who then has a bunch of puppies that are practically given away. These puppies may or may not be purebred.

7. The pet owner who believes that their bitch should have one litter before spaying her - for her health and temperament. That a bitch isn't really mature until she's cared for a litter. She will be more protective and serious after a litter.

"A small breeder that only breeds 1-2 carefully thought out litters a year, will never even recover the amount of money spend on his animals, unless he/she charges astronomical prices for his puppys."

Ulli's got it right; I bred a litter once and it cost me a fortune.

"...most of the breeders are away from producing equal to the dogs they start with,"

How does this work; do the good genes leak out?

Perhaps, 'betterment of the breed' is inaccurate; maybe 'continuation of the breed' would be a better phrase.  Either way, while there are certainly many whose goal is producing puppies for money, most of the people I know who breed do so to learn.  We all think we know what should happen when we choose a mating pair but that is often not what we get.

 SM, those all fall under Rik's #4, LOL.