Schutzhund Training Schools - Page 1

I believe Dog1's post to be most informative and I agree with everything he says and could have written it myself. So many people contact me for training and have so little idea of what it takes to title a dog. Some dogs come here and are not as described, in fact, most. Few have the necessary preparation. A bond has to exist first to do proper training. That takes time. Then, the trick is to find a way to get the dog to work. Sometimes that is not too hard, sometimes it is. And yes, there are dogs who have little to no drive and that makes it all but impossible to train a dog for Schutzhund. Others have issues that have to be solved. Sometimes, despite excellent people working with a given dog, it does take a long time. But then again, I believe in real training, not the "quickie" type training that so often goes on elsewhere, including Europe. For example, I have a dog here now with a supposed title and there is simply NO WAY this dog was ever titled. To boot, the dogs scores were top scores supposedly (though I did not actually see the scorebook myself). The dog is soft in temperament, but given time, may be able to perform. This dog was supposedly trained in Germany. I have heard about "crate trials" and always scoffed at that remark, thinking it was only working line fanatics who were simply bad mouthing show line dogs. Now I know it is true. And, the sad work I have seen from many show line dogs gives me pause for thought. My own opinion is that so many receive poor training. But I do not want to get into that argument. Continued in the next message:

Continued from Above: The fact is that it takes a long time to title a dog if a newcomer does it him/herself. Given that, IF you have access to an outstanding club with a good helper and people who will help you, and IF you will put in your time learning what to look for in the dog, how to motivate, how to encourage, how to be quick in rewarding or corrections (when the dog is old enough for corrections), can learn the rules and IF you have patience, yes, you can learn enough to title a dog. None of us were born knowing Schutzhund work. I still learn from others but I consider myself a competent trainer at this point, but that is after titling several dogs, one to SchH3, and many BHs. I also work 12 dogs at this point weekly. When someone calls me asking for a price, I give a range and I give a range for time frame to title. Why? Not because I want to milk every single dollar out of someone, but because most people, especially people who are relatively new to all this, have no idea about what it is that we need to find within a dog to title it. For example, I have a wonderful and very beautiful dog here from another country. When this dog came to me, I gave a very low price and a year time frame. The dog wanted absolutely nothing to do with men, including the helper. We had to find a way to work through that. There were days when I was NOT certain I could title the dog and I told the owner that. But I kept trying to work with the dog. The obedience came along and helped relieve the stress of being around men. We socialized with men until we were blue in the face. But that time, just the time to get the dog to play with me and finally be confident enough to bite me took more than 3 months. I worked out something with the owner to keep the dog and I am pleased to say the dog WILL likely earn a SchH title this spring or early summer. In this case, it was in the dog, but I just had to find it. Many would have given up. In the meantime, if you think I made any money on this, you are nuts. But I am committed to titling this dog because he CAN do it. The point I am trying to make is this: If you are willing to do so, titling your own dog can be a lot of fun. But it has many, many pitfalls and negatives to it, including the time one has to spend learning to train the dog. After all, it is mostly about teaching the human,,,,,,,not the dog. If you do not have the time, expertise or desire, yes, there are people here and abroad who will simply rip people off. A name given prior to my comment here was recently sanctioned and kicked out of a US Schutzhund organization for alledgedly not following through on a contract to train a dog. But there are also, here and abroad, people who can and will care for your dog as if it were their own, and who can and will title the dog if the dog has the "right stuff: And there are people like me who try to be fair, to the extent that we end up not making any money. Just think about how much time goes into training!!! That being said, there are many things a rookie can do to help prepare a given dog for any training it gets, whether they intend to do it or intend to send the dog off for training. Sorry to be long winded......the bottom line is that it is time consuming and expensive to title a dog..........and even more so to get a KKL on a dog. Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

hodie, very well stated.....

Dog1's statement also was excellent....

Kudos Sharyn, for telling it like it is. I have seen some of those titles given away as well. I know you are going to do your best to fulfill any commitment you make.

Kougar, I will fulfill ANY committment I make if it is in any way possible, to the extent that I take the financial hit. The dog I mentioned above who is here and who initially had trouble is now here for basically the cost of his food and helper pay (I pay an excellent helper). But it is hard if one cares about the dog not to appreciate progress and see the good in any dog. It is also a personal challenge for me to see this through and I will. This particular dog has enough defense within and with that and his obedience we got past his troubles with men. Now, if one did not know it, you would not believe what I went through to get him this far, or how hard the helper worked either for that matter. He even allowed the dog to dominate him in lots of ways, just to get him to the point where he was confident enough to challenge and bite. And now, bite he does, with a full mouth and crushing force. His obedience is good and his tracking is very good. He should do well. Next we will try to work with different helpers to see if we can make him comfortable enough to go elsewhere. In this particular dogs' case, I believe he was not properly prepared and, through no fault of the owner, may have even had a very negative experience that he carried (*she told me about a situation that I felt was very incorrect and probably scared the c--- out of the dog when he was too young). Let it be said that I am one show line enthusiast who does not believe that poor training and passing dogs along with poor work, especially poor bitework, does anything for the breed. The fact is that some dogs can not do it, working or show lines. But even fewer people can do what it takes to train the dog or be the helper. I am fortunate to have a lot of outstanding show line dogs who absolutely CAN work and I prove it. I do not go for high scores, I go for a dog that loves the work and looks like it is enjoying the work. I could care less if I get 280 and win high in trial. What I care about is the process. We also need more excellent helpers who will give their all to a dog, regardless of its' bloodlines and background. And, who will also look hard at their training and helper style to find a way to reach a dog that initially appears unable to do it. I am lucky to have access to one person who can do this. We do not always agree on everything, but there is simply no question about his helper work and ability to read the dog. In any case, sorry to have to have started a new post before (Dog1's response was under Schutzhand School) but the message board would not accept my long winded response. Happy New Year to All.

I've been thinking about attending the Tom Rose School of Dog Training to get a leg up on how to train for Schutzhund. I've heard they are reputable. Have you or anyone ever heard of it? What do you think of it?

I have a friend that went there, he didn't even know how to put a leash on a dog.lol...and he is now a very successfull trainer her in Dallas..I would have to say the only thing that he doesn't teach is leadership skills, but I think that is a way to keep getting money from people. Heather

Hodie -- i have to commend you on your commentary , efforts and your dog !! too many people give up on a dog and yes they have no clue on the relationship , time and effort that training takes --- you have done well !! although life is a learning process .. we all started at step one ... but it is good for novices to learn with their dogs too ./. but let me just for a minute restate something on an earlier post -- although i am a strong proponent for interacting with the GSD and bringing out it's potential ..even more so in GSD's that were not properly interacted with or just for some strange reason slow to mature [ i have seen dogs not even interested to bite up to 2 years then worked and suddenly went into overdrive to wrk and do protection for the love and fun of it , not defense] i do not bielive in DRIVE PROMOTION ---- the reason for this aside from the latter is that i have seen hundreds of show line GSD really rerally not worth calling working dogs !! they just do not have the characxteristics .. it should be so innate within the dog that after maturing or during puppyhood it can't wait to work .. you should just have to channel the behaviors .!! even if they have done schutzhund ... the BIG PROBLEM HERE is that very very seriuos faults , even in temperament , can masked in schutzhund .. [read the standard for GSD .. hello , COURAGE !! ] and for what ..just to say the dog got titled to breed ... pleassssse ... i would rather have a dog , a true GSD who works like a bandit with no title !! . breeders .. some world renowned breeders keep breeding for the show of it all !!i believe this is a travesty to the GSD !! good that you can enhance the character of a dog .. most admirable , dogs should be rehabilitated or given time to mature if needed !!!-- but heavens to betsy , let's not confuse that with a GSD that really is no way near to being called worthy to be GSD , titling it and then breeding it !!

Alphapup, Excellent post. I concur completely with your statements above. The trick then, in my opinion, is to know when it is, indeed, just a lack of maturity, a lack of proper preparation, insecurity, a bad experience, or a dog without the proper temperament and drives. As a former lifelong teacher at various levels, including college, this is the same with humans. How can I find a way to tap into this person or dogs' best potential and WHAT is really there? This is sometimes is not an easy task to distinguish what we need to know to best work with a dog or a human, in my opinion . So I would rather err on the side of giving the human or the dog every chance. But yes, just as with humans, there have been dogs I had to simply say did not have what it took. In all instances where a dog was involved, sadly the owner took this information personally. Being honest as I can be is not always easy. And no, I would NOT breed a dog who did not have what it is that is the essence of the breed. And yes, I agree, a working dog without a title should be respected, but why not get it a title (though I admit it isn't all that easy for a variety of reasons)? I also believe that it is not impossible to have proper structure, temperament AND working ability..... Cheers, Hodie