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Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 23 December 2018 - 18:12

Jilmissal: "I have never seen long haired Malinois in dog shows other than my own and neither have many of the judges we have shown under".
Could that just maybe be because all the other 'long coated Malis" are being registered and shown as Tervueren ???

Koots

by Koots on 23 December 2018 - 18:12

Jill - In Canada, the coat length and texture defines the variety of Belgian. There is no such dog as a long-haired Malinois in our registration, they would be called Tervuren. It is interesting that you can show a long-haired Belgian as a Malinois.     Here is a except from the Canadian Kennel Club Belgian Shepherd standard:

Like many European breeds, different coat colours, textures, and lengths were preferred by the original fanciers. Today, however, only four distinct coat types are recognized and have become the distinguishing characteristics of the four varieties of Belgian Shepherd Dog. The long-haired Groenendael and Tervuren, the short-haired Malinois, and the rough-haired Laeken variety differ in coat colour, length and texture but are unmistakably the same breed.

Of course, there is the possibility of getting long-haired dogs in Malinois breedings, but here  (in Canada) that long-haired dog would then be registered as a Tervuren (or Groenendael if black).     

 

To the OP - thanks for posting more pics of her.    She is growing really fast and looking more GSD than ever.    

 


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 24 December 2018 - 09:12

Thanks Koots. By no means an 'expert' on Belgian Shepherds, I still knew that at various times and in various countries, inter-varietal breeding and registration have been allowed by various nations' Kennel Clubs. You cannot do that any more in the UK (and there was a helluver row with our KC from some breeders, when they stopped allowing it !); I don't have any opinion one way or the other, I just know that Malcolm WiIllis showed that the four varieties were basically all one breed.

 

I am also aware that there are many 'mixes' (both in the Americas and Europe, notably the Low Countries) where Working Lines - as opposed to [conformation] 'Breed' people - regard it as perfectly normal to cross the very similar BSD / Mali, the GSD and the Dutch Herder together to produce good dogs for KNPV etc; some of them might, I suppose, regard these 'lines' of dogs as 'pure' for what they are doing. As distinct from studying breed history. 

We know little from the OP of who, where, etc was involved in this sale, other than that the pup was on Craigslist (never a good place to buy a dog !). And why would you believe anything said by somebody who was trying to sell you an undernourished puppy full of fleas ?


Koots

by Koots on 24 December 2018 - 17:12

While I don't necessarily agree with keeping the four varieties segregated by coat length, that's what the standard dictates for show & registration purposes in Canada as of now. I would love to see a really good working Tervuren, but unfortunately there are few if none in Canada as they have been bred for show. In Europe, coat length and colour means less and there are examples of good working Tervs and maybe the occasional Groenendael. My 'smartest' dog was a Tervuren, and although he was trained to schutzhund level 1 (he even got a 'pronounced' in phase C, but only got 69 in tracking, so no title), he was soft compared to the Mals that I had. The Terv is a beautiful dog, and I would have a strong working one in a heart-beat if I could find one, lol.

It seems from the growth of the pup compared to when she was 'rescued' from that bad situation by the OP, the future will be bright for this beautiful girl. Keep those pics coming, thanks.

by Ayleth99 on 26 March 2019 - 03:03

Wanted to give yall an update! Sorry it took so long, Liska is amazing, super smart and has grown so much! My friend that i bought her for loves her to death! i'm trying to upload some recent pictures, but seem unable to do so . 


by jillmissal on 02 April 2019 - 04:04

@Koots:

"here  (in Canada) that long-haired dog would then be registered as a Tervuren (or Groenendael if black)."

 

No, not true. Belgians in Canada are registered according to what their parents are. 

 

Judges in Canada don't give a hoot what the registration actually is. The judge who gave my long haired mal a Group One stopped me on the way out of the ring to ask me what kind of dog she was, haha!

If you look deeper into the breed standards you'd see that the coat type on a long haired Malinois is possibly...maybe...perhaps? a fault, but not much of a fault and not one that makes much of a difference to judges when all the varieties are in the same ring. My long haired Mals have taken BOB over all other varieties on occaision. AKC, where they show as different breeds, I don't yet know, though the coat length is not by definition a significant fault. Of course in Canada if you are showing against a well-coated Terv it's very hard to do well with any shorter haired dog, for whatever reason - but like I said, my long haired Mals have taken BOB over Tervs.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 02 April 2019 - 10:04

TBH I can't imagine anybody breeding Mals in the UK bothering to Register any long-coated pup appearing in a 'normal' litter (which one could not KC Register as a Terv, cos its parents would both be Malinois these days); I think they probably just sell them to pet homes and endorse them 'not for breeding'. (And keep their fingers crossed). At least, that's on the Show side of things; dunno about the Working people. Although if THEY register straight to the Activity Register, the problem could be by-passed as far as working competitions go. Still could not/ would not Show them in Breed classes though. Unless someone here knows different ??? I have to say (and this is given that most Tervs seem too laid back to make good working competition contenders) there don't seem to be a lot of long coated BSDs, even Groenendahls, out there on Trials etc fields.


Koots

by Koots on 02 April 2019 - 18:04

It would read from the reference below, that at the time of Candian Kennel Club registration submission, the coat type and hence the variety, is established....

 

https://www.ckc.ca/getattachment/Resources/Legal-Policy-and-Procedures/Chapter-4-Registration/Chptr-4-Registration-1.pdf.aspx  

 

6. Belgian Shepherd Dogs

  a) The Registration Division is authorized to register as a "Belgian Shepherd Dog (T)" any Belgian Shepherd Dog registered with the American Kennel Club as a "Belgian Tervuren".  

b) Interbreeding of the varieties of Belgian Shepherd Dogs is permissible.       02/05/2018 REGISTRATION 4:9

c) The Registration Division is empowered to carry out the annotation of Belgian Shepherd Dogs on registration certificates.  

d) All applications submitted for the registration of Belgian Shepherd Dogs must specify the coat variety of the dog for which registration is sought.  

e) All certificates of registration and pedigrees issued for the Belgian Shepherd Dog shall specify, behind the breed, an annotation indicating the coat variety of the dog for whom said certificate or pedigree is being issued.  

f) The coat varieties within this breed are as follows:  

       (1) Tervuren   (2) Groenendael    (3) Malinois    (4) Laeken  

g) When typing a certificate of registration or a certified pedigree, the coat variety will be specified behind the breed, (e.g., Belgian Shepherd Dog (T), Belgian Shepherd Dog (G), Belgian Shepherd Dog (M), Belgian Shepherd Dog (L)).  If The Canadian Kennel Club should receive an application for registration of a Belgian Shepherd Dog, whereon the coat variety is shown as a type other than those listed above, this will be annotated on the certificates or pedigrees by following the breed with the letter (O), meaning "other", e.g., Belgian Shepherd Dog (O).  


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 03 April 2019 - 19:04

So, Koots, when Registering, breeders/owners have to state 1,2,3, or 4. Unless Canadian Breed Shows are different from most else-where ( ? anyone ), then presumably the owner has to make the same declaration when ENTERING the dog for Shows.

Unless Jillmissal is only exhibiting at what in the UK we would regard as 'companion type' or 'fun' shows, i.e. separate from main Kennel Club competitive events, and entered on the day of the Show ? Which might explain why some Judge felt able / enough of an 'all-rounder' to issue a Group win without knowing which breed of dog he was giving it to ! Over to you, Jill ?

Koots

by Koots on 03 April 2019 - 19:04

Yes Hund...it seems like the person registering the pup has to declare the coat type according to the standard and thereby the variety is assigned.

So a person with a Mal x Terv litter has to declare which coat length each pup has when registering.   I imagine some mistakes could be made this way though...






 


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