Asking, no begging, for sincere Belgian Malinois advice - Page 6

  

Pepvol:

I really appreciated and enjoyed your post.  It was well written and made excellent points.  I received a few private messages,  e-mails and texts from people with very similar viewpoints. (who did not want to get sucked in to the forum abyss)  Thank you for taking the time to write it. 

For anyone who may want some expansion on Pepvol's insight and comments, you may want to check out Ivan Balabanov's website.  Ivan, whom many consider the foremost expert on Malinois and is without a doubt a world class trainer, had some very pointed remarks on what has been discussed here.  Log on to ivanbalabanov.com and check out the "Malinois FAQ. "   NO ONE would accuse Ivan of producing the "showline" Mals. that Asomich so deeply abhors, and Ivan wrote the following:

Some trainers and breeders try to convince you that only an experienced person should own one, but guess what, that is not true! It always amazes me to hear such statements, I have come to the conclusion that such statements are not directed to the Malinois breed.  These trainers and breeders want to make a statement to YOU that they are more capable than you, it elevates the trainer/breeder status in the eyes of the person that dared to ask them about their Malinois--In short it makes the trainer SPECIAL while convincing you that the Malinois is not for everyone.  Contrary to what you read and hear on Internet Forums Malinois WILL forgive training mistakes and move on faster than most breeds.

There is alot more but you get the point. Are some of Asomich's comments/judgements becoming a bit more in focus?  These are Ivan Balabanov's words, not mine.  I personally spoke with Ivan on the phone not long ago and he laughed out loud when I repeated some of what was said.  This is NOT to say mal. ownership should be taken lightly or without serious research and support.  It is, however, saying there are no stupid questions and we should all consider the source, especially when laced with such intolerance and ridicule. 

I am again considering whether or not to get a mal. but when and if I do I hope I can write here and on other forums for serious and thoughtful advice.

Thanks again, Pepvol!  Whoever you are, you rock!

jivan

   

Okay Asomich.  And you really need to see how all the Malinois advice you dispense goes over with everyone and then come back in a year.  Talk to you in August 2013.   Have a great year.

Of course you can. I purchased a puppy from Mohawk Malinois a few weeks ago. The reason I waited so long for one of his pupps was the fact that yes they have great drive but more important to me was their social skills. I have been around all of his adults and they are absolutely stable and great around kids. I took my 6 and 2 year old children to pick up our pup and I never hesitated to let them out with his adults running around. Don't listen to all the negative statements about the dark side of the Mals. It is bad breeding and bad training that makes these dogs unstable. You can see my pup at my website. I will continue to post videos of him as he grows and you will see him doing everything in every type of situation and yes with plenty of kids involved.

www.pakmasters.com

Thanks lkrohn!

I actually spoke to and e-mailed Mohawk John quite a few times.  He seems like a great guy and very knowledgeable about the breed.  I almost drove to Kentucky  to get one of his dogs but the wife was not so hot on bringing home a nine month old!  Still working on that end of it....

I am meeting a local trainer this week  who has mals to spend some time with them and to see how it goes. 

Look forward to more videos/experiences of your mal.   Thanks again.....

Ikrohn, I don't think it's really accurate to say that because you can handle a Malinois as a pet and around your kids, the average pet home can.  I only briefly looked at your website (the front page) but you are a professional trainer.  That right there means you are not the average pet home.

Can a pet home live happily with a working line Malinois?  Yes, as long as they are ACTIVE, either have the experience level to provide the training the dog requires, or are willing to seek that out and commit to it, and it's the right pup from the right litter (lower drive, laid back personality). 

Can the average pet home live happily with a Malinois?  No, absolutely not.  The first time the pup kicks into drive and grabs their ankle, or chases little Johnny through the yard and bites him they are going to freak out and either get rid of the pup, or stick it out in the backyard keeping it away from the family until it's older, untrained, unsocialized, and basically a destructive freak.

I am one of those working line breeders that now states on my website I won't place pups in pet homes.  Is this a hard and fast rule, no.  If a pet home comes to me and can prove that they might be a good home for one of my pups, I will still consider a placement, but they are going to jump through some hoops before I'll consider it, and very few pups out of a litter, if any, will be considered for that home.  Why, because I'm tired of putting pups into non-Malinois experienced pet homes that sound like they plan to do it all the right way, only to find out later they only took the pup to two training sessions with the trainer because they got busy, quit taking the pup out in public because he'd try to chase joggers or bicyclists while they wanted to chat with friends over a coffee and ignore him, tossed him in the back yard because he "attacked" someone (ie 10 week old Malinois pup hanging off someone's ankle), ignored any and all advice they got from me or other experienced people because past dogs never needed to be trained and grew up well behaved, and at 6 months they are tired of dealing with him and want to return him.  Unsocialized, untrained, and with other baggage.  I will take back a dog from my breeding at any time, and work to rehab it and then rehome it.  But as the breeder why would I risk putting a pup in a pet home, especially one with no Malinois experience, when I could put it in a working or performance home instead, where it can live as a pet, but with an experienced trainer who will routinely give the dog an outlet for it's drive and energy.  Heck, even some of the experienced working/performance homes I've put pups in couldn't handle the pups drives or level of desire to bite.  And they were pups I considered "medium" from the litter.

I've done a lot of Malinois education over the years, and one thing I don't do anymore is just let people meet the dogs when the dogs are on their best behavior.  Way to many people see a well behaved Malinois out in public and think they are born that way, they have no idea how much training went into the dog, and how much exercise (mental and/or physical) the dog gets.  Sure you can meet them, 1 or 2 at a time, when they are under control and behaving.  But if you come to my house, and you aren't experienced with the breed, I will turn my entire pack loose at once, and usually they have been hanging out in the house or a bedroom sleeping so they are extra amped and ready to go when I do it >:-).  If you can look at the speed and energy 5 or 6 Malinois can create and think "this is awesome, I want one of these" then this might actually be the breed for you.  But if you look at it and get overwhelmed and starting thinking "how quickly can I get out of here", time to look for another breed :-)  Most people I do this to, start looking for the polite exit.  The few who don't, might actually get a pup at some point.

To the OP, don't take it personally, but the gut reaction of many working Malinois breeders when asked about Malinois as pets is an automatic "no" because of experiences like mine.  And even the ones who will place them as pets, if they are being honest, will admit there is a difference between the pups in a litter they would place as a pet, and the pups they would place in a competitive working/performance home.  Or if they breed enough, the litters they would place as pets vs the litters bred more for the working/performance homes.

Hi Malndobe:

I don't take it personally; I actually really appreciate your thoughts.    Those are ALL great points and that is the exact type of info. I was seeking when asking for advice at the beginning off this thread.  So thank you for the in depth answer.  You definitely give one alot to think about.

One thing I was not clear on in your post: On your last paragraph you mentioned that a breeder might distinguish between a pup placed as a pet versus one in a working environment---The breeders I have spoken with have been briefed extensively about my situation and pretty much are stating their breed or a certain litter they have is more of an active home pet than competetive/working line dog.  With this in mind do you still feel ANY mal from ANY litter from ANY breeder in ANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised? 

I could not tell if you also meant that would be an automatic no.  Thanks again!

To malndobe, I know what you are saying and I agree with you completely. I think most people should never own a Mal. My point to the person who asked the question was with the right dog and right training with the right lifestyle you could have a great life with a mal as a pet. I have people ask me all the time for advice on getting a mal and I don't think i have ever encouraged one of them to do so. Simply because most people will never put the work in that is necessary. But if this guy is willing to do what it takes than good for him.

The breeders I have spoken with have been briefed extensively about my situation and pretty much are stating their breed or a certain litter they have is more of an active home pet than competetive/working line dog. 

Actually this is basically what I was trying to say.  I dont't agree with the focus on producing pets, but it sounds like the breeders you are talking to are being honest.  Some breeders will try to say their dogs are capable of living happily in the average pet home, then jumping off the couch and going and winning the world championships.  The same dog.  Those breeders are trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, trying to convince the pet home they aren't buying a pet, but a world class working dog who will happily live as a pet.  Because for some people, they feel "pet" = "inferior" even though for a pet home pet = appropriate.  That doesn't mean the world class working dog can't also live as a pet, but it's doing that in a home with a trainer, not the average pet home.

The breeders who are honest will say "this breeding is geared towards active pet homes" and admit that someone looking for a working/competition dog might find 1 pup in the litter but most won't be suitable for them, and none might be suitable.  And on the flip side a pet home might find 1 pup in a working/performance oriented litter that is suitable, or 0.  But when a breeder is trying to breed for both markets, and isn't clear in their advertising they do so, people assume that if their neighbor/friend/cousin/etc got a great pet from breeder X, and they see on breeder X's website that they breed working dogs and no mention that the litter the friend's pup was actually from was bred more for the pet market, then they think they can go to breeder Y who also advertises working dogs and get a great pet.

With this in mind do you still feel ANY mal from ANY litter from ANY breeder in ANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised?

Yes and No LOL  I don't feel "ANY mal from ANY litter from ANY breeder in ANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised"  However, I do feel MANY mals from MANY litters from MANY breeders in MANY pet home is inherently a bad idea and ill advised.  And I do NOT agree with breeding Malinois litters with the focus being active pet homes.   It's a working breed, and should remain as such.  Even in the working bred litters there will be the occasional pup who just doesn't have the drive to be a working dog, those pups can be placed in pet homes.  But if the breed has to be "bred down" to make it suitable for the average pet home, the average pet home should go get a different breed.