by Mindhunt on 10 March 2019 - 01:03
I believe we do a disservice to our dogs or any other animals when we keep with that myth dogs are just stimulus driven machines and have no depth of emotion or cognition.
by AlanAllen on 24 April 2019 - 18:04
Definitely a great read. Thanks for sharing, Mindhunt!
by AlanAllen on 30 April 2019 - 19:04
Admin deleted as no advertising in any of our forums thanks. mrdarcy (mod)
by Mindhunt on 01 May 2019 - 15:05
by Hundmutter on 01 May 2019 - 19:05
Think he tried to hijack your thred, Mindhunt !
Re the articles, there is a shorter review of "Mama's last hug" in New Scientist of 6 April '19, (by Michael Bond) if anyone is interested to look it up and wants a quicker read on this.
Rather than 'denial', Bond concludes that there is still far too much work to be done to be making definitive statements about other species' emotional capacities. He says: "For the moment it is enough that we take seriously what is visible on the outside."
On the subject of guilt v. shame, I thought at the time I originally read Lorenz's book that it was odd that his dog had reacted so distinctly, unlike at least two of mine who have caught me in their teeth because I made the mistake of trying to stop fights by getting in the way of the head end, on separate occasions. The response from them was more "What the heck are you howling about ?", not "Oh dear, I'm sorry I hurt you."
by Mindhunt on 14 May 2019 - 13:05
Hundmutter, I recently had to euthanize my 16 year old Ronin after a couple days of lethargy, not eating, unable to support his own weight, and general appearance of "all done with life". Up until then he was actively involved in the world around him (difference of night and day). The night before I took him in, Quint placed his favorite "Pretty Cow" stuffed cow on Ronin's bed and nudged it up to Ronin's face then laid down next to him staring at him. I thought "Oh crap, it's time." I took all of them in the next day for Ronin's passing. Quint and Ronin were pretty tightly bonded, when we got home, Quint rounded up every single toy and Isis (Queen Bitchie Poo) let him take her toys (which is NEVER allowed by her) and followed him into my bedroom where Ronin's bed was. They placed all the toys on the bed as a sort of shrine, that shrine lasted almost a week then they took the toys to their respective areas and beds and things were back to normal. Dogs do have similar cognition and affect, no one can convince me otherwise. Especially after that little shrine was built, it almost broke my heart.
by Hundmutter on 14 May 2019 - 16:05
Sorry for your loss, Mindhunt. Others who live in multi-dog households report similar behaviours; I cannot say I have seen / experienced anything like it because while keeping multiple dogs, that has never been inside my home (where I've only ever had one at a time). Certainly I have never known anything like 'shrine building' in kennelled dogs (although many have shared their kennels with the same one or two others for years ).
Nor, to be honest, have I ever seen with my own eyes anything like this behaviour, even where some odd 'emotional' responses have been reported, while in friends' multi-dog houses. To the extent that, while I accept that its all perfectly possible, and things may well happen that I am not party to, I sometimes have been unable to stop myself wondering if the reported behaviour has really happened in the way reported, or whether something happened that has then been interpreted by the owner as something more ...
by Mindhunt on 21 May 2019 - 17:05
Thanks Hundmutter, Ronin was an amazing dog and taught me tons about training and a dog's abilities. He left a big hole after 16 years with him. The others are finally getting back to normal. They will lay on his bed in the bedroom now. I remember the horses walking around and sniffing my horse when he died suddenly and he was brought back to the farm in a front end loader. The cow he had a love affair with was really upset sniffing him. As for interpreting the behavior, that is what Frans de Waal said, when an animal is not viewed has having similar emotions and just seen as an instinct driven unself aware animal, we do them a great disservice (not that you were).
by Hundmutter on 21 May 2019 - 18:05
I've never denied that animals have emotions, Mindhunt, or that (some ?) dogs display emotions that seem similar to those of (some / most ?) humans; what I take issue with is any paper ('scientific' or, usually, otherwise) that seems to be insisting that all the emotions displayed by all animals are all exactly the same as those experienced by humans.
This position does not allow for differences between species. Or for differences between individuals within a species. I don't think its doing much of a disservice to dispassionately view the evidence and notice those species differences, it is just being 'real' ! We should all keep an open mind, but be strict enough to forensically examine what we are seeing.
by Mindhunt on 22 May 2019 - 17:05
I believe Hundmutter (and I could be mistaken), researchers look at dogs similar to humans because of the similar right/left brain differentiation, similar neurotransmitters (especially oxytocin the bonding or cuddle neurotransmitter), a degree of self awareness, planning, and so on. Dogs have all the markers for same cognition and affect as bright human elementary school age children.
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