Thoughts on cofirmation and working line studs - Page 7

That is what I was trying to get accross. That perfect VA1 conformation doesn't = built best by nature. If the Showline GSD conformation was best suited for stamina more breeds and even the wolf would have this "natural" look. When you look at a show line there is nothing natural in the way they look. They look clumsy, uncomfortable and akward. I'm sure in the 70's when this body type started showing up, the majority of GSD'd were not used for herding therefor didn't need to hold up physicaly or have great stamina. Any dog in good shape should not be exhausted after 5 miles. If I had to go show line again I would accuire a dog from Kirshental (I know I spelled that wrong) don't have the time to look it up. At least these dogs come from actual working stock and must be able to hold up.

Anyone who thinks show lines have no stamina need either to go try to handle one in the Working Dog Class in the Sieger How in Germany or try to follow one around with Karl Fuller and a few hundred wild and wooly sheep for a whole day. My guessitmate about differences in why both working and show dogs can move all day is that one does it easily because it is structured to do so, while the other does it out of heart and drive and ignores the discomfort of NOT having the more correct structure. Ex: Bold Ruler won a lot of big races despite being one of the sorest race horses ever to look through a bridle when he stepped out of his stall each morning... because he had a tremendous amount of heart, or, as we call it on the track: "Class." Working dogs tend to be high-energy, (The "2 speed: fast and OFF" thing) thus many never do gain much weight or lose condition. If your correctly-structured dog tires easily its probably because its too FAT and out of shape. We Americans keep our dogs much too heavy according to every German I know, myself included. Once allowed to gain excess weight, its very difficult to get the dog back into top condition without risking injury. The conditioning program for an overweight dog must be very carefully considered and executed with care, with a strong awareness of the dog's response to the program on a daily basis. Races horses tend to "tuck up" a lot easier with a lot less risk. School's out. Ha ha ha

Sorry Shelly must disagree. My show girl is anything but fat and is in the best shape probably of her life. My rescues are more on the fat side because I "yes" free feed them. They can still gladly haul around their extra pounds It's too bad the show lines don't have as much heart. That is all I can say. Don't need schooling on conditioning. Have had horses and dogs all of my life. Never are my dogs obese and I always get compliments on the condition of my dogs. Actually I must go, it's time for the morning run.

4pack, from my perspective you're basically taking your personal experience with your showline dog, plus that of a few others posting here who also apparently have couch potatoes, and generalizing about ALL show-lines (I would add that from your prior posts about your showline, it doesn't sound as though she had come to you from the greatest of situations, so isn't it possible that a poor environment lacking any meaningful stimuli might have played a bigger part in the lack of liveliness and endurance you see now than her lines?) That's really no different than someone on the opposite side of the fence claiming that most working-lines dogs are pinheaded overstretched coyotes. I doubt you'd agree with that, and neither would I, despite my personal preference for the showlines. As for free-feeding, I've been very lucky that the three dogs I've had are or were able to do it and keep lean. I started free-feeding the 9-month-old pup last month, and he's handling it very well. Too bad the same can't be said of their master!

p59 it has to do with more than this one dog. I have seen many and watched one, "Prince" put down when I was about 4, crying my eyes out because his hips were bad. I know there are some good show quality dogs out there too. VB knows I am looking for them always. The vast majority of the public will always be interested in the black and reds. Your right my girl did probably come from a bad situation. What I expect from a dog is to recover from that in time. She has been treated very well and a hard or strong dog would have came out of it eventually. This girl has collapsed inside herself, you can see it in her eyes. I have been through some crappy situations in life myself. I always get back up and keep kicking. One of my rescues came out of a horrible situation of neglect and mistreatment. Over a year old and he was 35lbs, had kennel cough and was dropped off at the pound. He had the instincts of a wolf and no idea how to act twords humans. He is a pinheaded overstretched Coyote. He is built nothing like a WGS dog. More like a cheetah and he moves like one. This dog can run all day. He has been my shadow and calm loving companion for years now. Not another person in my family likes this dog because he ignores them 95% of the time.

The show girl did 1.5 miles at a trot today. She seems to be coming back to life again. Looking for attention and saying hi to the kids. I should start a diary of her daily progress. Hopefully she will stay in this mood, through the Holidays.

I have show-lines, and was comparing activity levels with 4pack yesterday. Hope no one got the idea that I have couch potatoes here---sometimes, wish I had. I, also, thoroughly enjoy being outdoors in nature (as best I can find). The dogs, naturally, benefit immensely. My couch potatoes get much more exercise than I would imagine 9/10ths of the dogs 'out there'. So, I will offer up my insight. Everything depends on age and structure of the dog. (Never had one with no heart.) One of greatest dogs ever born (IMO)--3/4 AM showline, 1/4 Lord G grandson) put to shame one day a bunch of Schutzhund titled (workingline) champions. This group of enthusiasts had met and were practicing where I go on a daily basis. They were commenting on my boy, and as pointed out in other threads---were saying the usual patronizing remarks. (This was the first time I encountered this prejudice, and I actually found them funny.) Some friends were also around playing ball with their dogs. One of the schutzhund-group men picked up a ball and threw it--very far. All the dogs started racing after it. I was furious and seething because I didn't want my dog chasing the ball--he wasn't a runner (wasn't structually correct for running). But he had *more heart* than any dog I've ever encountered. He put his all into that chase, and beat their dogs. He grabbed the ball, and on the return run, another dog challenged him. He dropped it, growled, and lunged at the titled dog--then, regrabbed the ball and brought it to me. Being 7 1/2 yrs old at the time certainly put him at a disadvantage to the other dogs, ages 2 1/2, 3 and 4--I inquired. Even though I was furious at these yahoos, I was so proud of him. (But, I am honest to admit-- structually, he couldn't have continued to win--not running). Trotting--another story. He had a beautiful gait and could trot endlessly. I will never push my dogs to any extreme endurance test. When I see that the extra energy that leads to behavioral problems has dissipated, I'm quite content to call it a day. This is after "much" exercise. And--age, structure, weather (extreme cold and Heat) will always be a factor. At the present, I have West German showlines. I see the many strengths and weaknesses in my guys. All I can say is my boys are quite a handful, especially the young one. Could they do more? Probably. One apparent fact that should be obvious---any structual inadequacies are going to severely compromise the dog and owner from having any quality of life. It becomes physically painful for the dog and emotionally wearing and expensive for the owner. (And, if "dissipating that extra energy" is no longer feasible---What then??????) For my part--I'm inclined to believe that the working lines have the Edge on stamina--But, I will always judge the individual dog every time.

Oh I judge by dog as well. I'm not one to count out a showline because of his pedigree. I know people who do, it still doesn't change how I feel. If I could find the right show lines I would probably breed them. I'd catch hell for it too, from the dog people close to me. I'm not one to give in to pressure though. I'm still searching for physically sound Black and reds who can kick ass on the field. Actually saw the biggest goofiest WGS dog at a PSA trial and laughed when I saw him and when they announced his name. Boy did I shut up after seeing him go after the decoy. Decoy forgot to present the arm because he was a SCH dog and the dog hit the decoy and the both folded. It was ugly. Promts to the dog, he got up and they re did the exersize for him. The dog came back just as hard.

In training tracking, trailing and air scenting the dog has to have drive or he will quit working. Not talking about a 100 yard track.. Talking about a 2-3 mile track thru dry brush at 90 degs. Unless you have alot of drive and want too the dog will quit. The prettiest gait in the world is no help if the heart and drive isn't there.

For me, I'm not interested in their trot. They don't trot to the decoy or bad guy, "police K-9's" They need to hit fast and hit hard. They better have a fully developed grip too, to stay on. My dogs don't trot after prey, they better not trot when I call them either. My dogs get mad if I don't let them run balls out at least once a day. Usually I pace them when they excersize, however they are the ones who push and want to go faster. They get right beside the car or bike, even so much as to get in my way until I speed up. They lay their ears back and stretch out. You can see the enjoyment on their faces. They live for it. I have to make them call it quits for their feets sake. They will run until their pads tear and bleed. These are dogs that get everything they want or need. They don't "have" to work for anything. Trick loves to run because I used to live in the country and ride a dirtbike around and my dogs would follow me. Bax was around the bikes some and my dogs even went to Pismo Beach and ran in the dunes and ocean one year. The cat even went along on that week long trip.