What would you change? - Page 4

I have heard the same things, but not seen them with my own eyes. I stay away from the people that are reputed to work in these manners. I don't doubt for a minute that they are true. I have heard these things from reputable sources, people (not djc) who have seen them happen. The question I have is this - why do people talk amongst themselves about it, yet no one files charges????? My guess is this - there is nothing spelled out that guarantees that they will get backing from USA. I can't imagine USA would promote these methods, BUT the way things are written is very very general. I think USA needs to take a stand (beyond 'promote humane training methods' - how about USE humane training methods??). I like djc's thoughts on this matter. There should be some guidelines that still allow flexibility for personal styles. Or maybe it should be written in reverse - "the following methods will NOT be tolerated....." I also think there should be a helper's code of ethics that these guys should sign when they get certified. Maybe the helper program comittee can look into this??????

I have to clarify, sorry djc.....I meant that I heard the same sorts of things from reputable people, and that you and I have never discussed this topic. I re-read what I wrote and it came out skewed in my reference to you!!!!!!!

Produce names and witnesses and something will be done. Rumors are just bullshit.

spook101 you sound like you are guilty,there is bad and good in this world,so is in this sport,and a lot of trainers do expirence or abuse your dog,most of the time the handler dont see that or will not say a word becouse there is nobody else to go to train,there is trainers if they see you got a good dog they make sure the dog will not get nowhere,you can damage a good dog in one day

"The question I have is this - why do people talk amongst themselves about it, yet no one files charges?????" I'd take the question further than that: how is it that an owner of a dog sees or finds out that the dog is being beaten with a 2X4 and doesn't ensure that the trainer spends the next hour or two on his hands and knees looking for his teeth? Any breeder or handler who would silently tolerate such abuse because of possible commercial inconvenience is no better than the trainer doing it, and is certainly no one I'd ever want to do business with. I certainly realize that training a stubborn, aggressive dog isn't going to be all mother's milk and daffodils, and I have no problem with compulsive training methods...but there's a pretty clear line between appropriate force and beating the dog with a club. "Or maybe it should be written in reverse - 'the following methods will NOT be tolerated.....'" I think this would be the best way to set a "humane standard" and yet allow leeway in technique. Language along the lines of "no dog shall be struck with excessive force causing or likely to cause serious injury" or "pinch collars shall only be used on the neck of the dog" would permit variety in method yet draw the lines not to be crossed.

dic, If you were witness to these happenings and do not report them you are an "accomplis" and may be prosecuted as such, I have forwarded your post the HSUS for further review, If I were you I would now pick up the phone and file a formal complaint give what information you know to the investigators and cooperate with them, You clearly stated you were not going to get involved now your cooperation will be required of you in order for you not to be brought up on charges as well. In some states a witness to animal abuse that does not come forward can be brought up on a variety of charges as well as the abuse itself just like you were swinging the 2x4 with your own hands. Do the right thing pick up the phone and clear this up. Good Luck

Echo, you seem like a nice person who is totally committed to the breed, but if you actually did what you said you did, you were incredibly misguided. First, djc said "I know of dogs" who were abused. That does not sound like someone who actually witnessed any abuse, which would make any second-hand knowledge she has hearsay. Second, I live in the People's Republic of Massachusetts - one of the most heavily regulated states in the country. Notwithstanding the amount of duties imposed upon me by law, I do not even have a legal obligation to call the police to report my neighbor grilling their baby on the barbecue, let alone to contact the authorities about animal abuse. Certain professionals like teachers, nurses, doctors and psychologists have a legal duty to report suspected child abuse (and there is a state-mandated specific form to be used for this), but not the average citizen. This is because the general legal theory in this country is that we don't want to turn our society into a police state where every citizen is required to inform on their neighbors whenever they observe illegal behavior. So for that reason, I very much doubt that djc has any legal obligation to cooperate with any investigators. Third, why anyone involved in the breed would want to involve an organization like HSUS in Schutzhund training-related issues is beyond me. Some of the folks active in that organization would like nothing better than to ban Schutzhund altogether, because they view even the lightest stick hits as "abuse." Fourth, people should be able to freely discuss relevant issues here without worrying that someone is going to drop a dime on them to the authorities. If you want change in a given endeavor, then work within your particular community to bring it about. If you want to inform the authorities about something you have personally witnessed, that is your business. Trying to force someone else to do so is not.

I agree that why on earth would an owner let someone do this to their dog? Usually you get some idea of how someone trains long before they pick up the 2x4.... But seriously, if the owner allows it, they are guilty too. It doesn't matter if the person being brutal is an 'expert' with 'decades in the sport'. We are still responsible for our animals' well beings, and we must have the ultimate say in what methods are employed. If you aren't comfortable with what is being done, you have no obligation to put up with it. Walk away. Better yet, run. And Echo - I sincerely hope you did NOT forward these posts. I agree that abuses need to be stopped, BUT those organizations are anti Schutzhund. Did you THINK before you hit send? This won't clear up anything, will only create more problems for the good guys who train PROPERLY. USA needs to take some action. Going to outside organizations is foolish.

BSP, what convoluted bullshit. Anyone who lets their animal be abused because, quote "or will not say a word becouse there is nobody else to go to train." You, my friend, sound as if you have a guilty conscience. Have some guts, if you are in that situation leave it and protect your dog. Good trainers don't need abuse to succeed. P59, right on. Echo, again you jumped the gun and the humane society will eat this up. I'll bet Ms. Melle has witnessed none of this, but was interested in boosting her self importance.

The fact is this... Schutzhund will never "take off" in the US so long as crap like that is being said, witnessed, tolerated, allowed, and promoted. So end the bullshit and get on with the sport. What is wrong with you guys ??? You tolerate her/him closing they're eyes, mouth to this, and P59 OMG grilling a baby on the barbque ?? Are you kidding me, You would not say anything ? You I would not care to have for a neighbor if that statement is true, Who will stand up for the Baby/Animal those who can not speak for themselves. You know better than that, I like you I respect the majority of your posts may not agree with all of them but respect them !! This is not a choice for me you nit whits, I am bound by law to report any and all abuse or "alleged" abuse that is brought to my attention, Here in my state I am "bound" by that law, I don't have a choice, I ignore it and I am brought up on charges... Simple choice for me. Not to mention the MORAL Obligation I was raised with !!! Here all Humane,Shelter workers, All Veterinary clinicians, veterinarians, assistants, Brand inspectors, State Police officers, Are bound by law to report any and all alleged, witnessed, or suspected abuse, neglect, abandonment.