Quite Disturbed... does this happen often ? - Page 4

DH, let's you and I just agree to disagree too. I really have no desire to debate you on this. You broker dogs, I do not; this is not and never will be apples to apples. I will concede that you are the expert on importing dogs and if you say that I do not know what I'm talking about (at loss for argument) then you are right. I only know what I read on here and hear from others and I have never heard that a German breeder will offer to take back a dog or offer a guarantee. Believe it or not, I don't even have a problem with that since I also understand that these are conditions that are stated up front. A buyer should not expect anything more. Ulli is from Germany I believe and IMO that puts him/her and you in different catagory than those here in the US who breed litter after litter, sell them to anyone with the money and then act all indignant when someone even dares to suggest that they might feel a little responsibility. Our rescues here are overflowing with GSD's. I understand there is not that problem in Germany. In some ways I myself think that the German breeders are more ethical than many here in the US. They don't make false promises they to do not intend to honor. I'm happy for you that you are able to screen your buyers so well that you never ended up with a dissatisfied buyer. Why don't you share with us how you do that so others can profit for your experience. I never was good at it, probably the reason I got back about 1/4 of all the dogs I bred and yes it really added up over the years. I had to build many extra kennels to take care of those damned dogs, but I did it. Frankly it drove me nuts. I belong to a national breed club that can prefer charges against any member who refuses to take back a dog they have bred. Again, it's the difference in cultures.

Some buyers have some issues after the dog arrives. Never said there are no issues ever. But instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater and sending the dog back at the first sign of trouble, proper consultation takes care of most problems. Often people are temporarily overwhelmed with their new dog. See Melissas posts. Had she bought that pup from me, I would have talked her through her tough times and she would have had no need to consult this board. A breeder should know that and know how to handle that, at least learn how to handle that. Holding the buyers hand, even if you can only do that via eMail, or better yet over the phone will help weather most storms. A sympathetic ear and some decent advice solves just about every situation. I do not broker dogs, I consult people on their purchase. There is a difference. I dispise the term broker because no owner or breeder brokers their own dogs, and if our network has some dogs for sale, they are not just given to anybody just because they put funds on the table. I make sure it is a good fit. I am the only one who speaks proper English in our network, so that task falls on me. We network, pool our resources. Something so american yet so foreign to american breeders and trainers... I also do no believe in offering things for free. The whole full guarantee issue brings down a whole load of problems for breeders who even suggest it. The thought of free and puppy should never be put into the same pot. The guarantee we offer is a limited guarantee, like anything else out there that you buy. Nothing available for sale on the market today comes with a no questions asked guarantee. Even those that claim just that always have the fine print to watch out for. I just bought a new lawn mower, and actually took the time to read the warranty conditions: I am expected to remove each wheel after every use, and oil it. I am expected remove the cutting blade after every use, sharpen and oil it. I am expected to do a whole lot of other things that no user will ever do. So we accept such warranty terms when we purchase all sort of "items". Everyone has always read that sign that says "if you open me and you are not a certified this or that your warranty is void". If you buy a car you are required to put in a certain type of gasonline, do regular oil changes, take it for regular inspection intervals. If you do not do that, guarantee is void. cont...

cont... Therefore, a pup also comes with a limited guarantee only. Because even if the pup does not pass the a-stamp, the buyer has already had a years worth of enjoyment out of this pup. Very few hips that do not pass are actually "lethal" to the pup, so the buyer still gets several more years of enjoyment and use out of their dog. It may not live as long as originally hoped for, but we can never predict life span anyways. So because they still have use of the original pup they can have a replacement for half price. I may request to see the x-rays and request that the pup is rescreened. Sometimes they are not poor hips but poor x-rays. If everything is covered and we still do not get a passable results, then after the original pup has been fixed and papers are returned we can discuss the replacement issue. If the buyer wants to wait a year or two before getting a second dog, no problem. This is where the breeder or seller needs to meet some of the life circumstances of the buyer and show some flexibility. With a little give and take everyone can come to a consensus and work out just about everything. We do not cover everything under the sun though. Dogs get sick, dogs die, dogs have accidents, and dogs can harbor very rare genetic diseases, that is just part of life. If approached reasonably you will never find me turn my back on you though, even if not covered by a guarantee. Bottom line is that it comes down to reasonable. If the buyer wants the world he will not get it from me. I can only offer a dog, with the limitations that nature puts on her creatures. That is how I put it to a prospective buyer, make sure they understand that - before they commit. A pup comes with a limited guarantee, a mature dog comes as is, since the areas that are usually under guarantee are already covered by things like prescreens, a-stamps, titles, etc. We cannot guarantee fertility, how many more litters, how many pups per litter, what placing at a show or trial, that this dog will live to be 16, etc. If the buyer cannot accept that then that is the only time I offer something for free: he is free to go to the next person that tells him everthing he wants to hear, that will blind him with fairytales and colourful stories of trouble-free and care-free and god knows what else free. Then a few months later I get that call "maybe I should have bought one from you...". They still can. The secret is simple really. Speak to the buyer in realistic terms. Take the time to find the right person who speaks the same terms and the same language as you. By that I do not mean English. I mean, that you are in sync with what you both consider reasonable and acceptable. Spend some time so you get a feel for each other, only agree if you have respect for each other. You are not doing the buyer or yourself any favors by laying the sales pitch on super thick and promising the world just to get that puppy sold. High expectations breed big disappointment. The kind we end up reading about here. Realistic represenation produces realistic expectations which produce realistic results. That is my concept. Easy, simple and effective.

Great discussion! This clash of cultures, and the expectations of buying the "perfect" dog, as it relates to buyer/seller responsibilities on this side of the Atlantic, is looooonngg overdue. Stephen

DH, If all breeders would have your insight and drive when it comes to placing their puppies, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I do disagree a bit with your saying that dogs come back because the breeder gives the buyer a hard sales pitch (assuming I understand you correctly). My experience has been different. I was never one to promote my dogs to anyone, but still I got many back due to what I considered some very weak reasons. I admit that I never tried to talk anyone out of returning a dog. If they wanted to send it back, I took it no questions asked. Maybe that was not the smart thing to do, but I just got so fed up with some of the complaining that I just decided to say - I'll take the dog back. BTW I never refunded money and no one ever asked. If I was able to sell the dog within a reasonable time I did refund something, but if I had to keep it for months, there was no money back. None I took back were sick and none ever contaminated any of my other dogs. I could never have sold any puppies from my original breed for breeding and show had I not offered a full written guarantee on hips, fertility and a few genetic diseases that were common in the breed. Everyone I know offers written guarantees and without one it is impossible to sell a dog to even a pet buyer. Breeders of GSD's seem to not have to do that and that was a big shock to me. I thought every breeder of all breeds offered written guarantees and took back their dogs. Guess I do live in LaLa land after all.

I have been on both sides of this fence I was told early on That "IF you bred you rescue" Well I did and I came down with everything possible!! to Where I had people saying I was a bad breeder cause I had Coccidioss, they say it is from a dirty kennel Yeah right! (it camefrom a boarder) and now I have to treat all my dogs everytime I have a litter. I have spent 1000s on my dogs, new clients dog, and thier dogs. I see that side. Then I see the breeders down the street that imports high dollar dogs and bred them and call me to take in one of thier puppy!!!! cause they don't want to deal with it. or thier clients bring me the puppy/dog and say the breeder will not return thier call or even help them find a home. I have had to refuse and call animal controll due to people TIEING dogs to my front steps, driving by -stopping - letting ou the dog and driving off!!!! I have heard it all from I can no longer afford to my wife won't let me keep it, to I asked for a pet (spayed/nuetered) dog but now I want a breeding dog cause I can make lots of $$$$$$!! In fact today at 11 am I had a guy drop off a 3 yr old female cause he can no longer keep her (they want to go an vacation). She is one of mine that I produced. at 7 pm I found her a great home with friends and LUCKED UP that does not happen all to often. MY opinion is You have to wake up in the morning and look in the mirror! you can only decide.

After all the work I have done, in developing, caring and loving 2 adult mating partners, I would want to know what happens to their pups. We speak of guarantees etc. but what does it really mean? How can a father of four tell his children that their 2 year old dog is dysplastic and therefore needs to go back to the breeder for a replacement? I have thought long and hard on this. And as much as I love my dogs, I also love their off spring. And I don't ever want anything attached to my name to wind up as a rescue. As a "hobby breeder" who has spent a small fortune in breeding a one off litter, I felt the only guarantee I could give my customers was to say I will take the dog back "no questions asked and give you full return of the puppy price." I had done all I could do to eliminate the common genetic guarantees. My guarantee had in fact nothing to do with hips or X-rays. I just do not want any of my dogs winding up in the wrong hands or in hands that cannot appreciate the drive and beauty of these puppies. I would rather forego breeding than to know one of these precious puppies winds up in rescue or even worse in a puppy mill. For the most part selection of puppy owners for this litter had to do with word-of-mouth. The owners of these puppies came and lived in my home for 4 days, went with me to the vet for their health certificates, could watch their puppies interact in their own litter. It is my gift to these puppies that they will always be cared for and loved. To their owners, they know, they got the best out of two very nice dogs. And any problem we encounter, we will master together. Because I simply care and want to know. For the sake of how my own dogs produce for good or for bad. Blitzen, you always have a pick pup from me waiting for you. Sunny

I have a dysplastic female I took back a few months ago and she is part of the family now. Very unexpected, for 7 generations, there was all normals, MAYBE 2 A2s in the pedigree. Great dog, showline, with a working line heart, very intense. I made that decision and will live with it. If all ten people had returned their pups, 4 years ago, with my first litter, I would have been done, no more breeding for me, I would have run out of room overnight, and would not be able to have another litter for 14 years or so. Not Practical. Even if you take back 1 pup every 3 litters, it still is not practical. The North American Continent has a mentality of pursueing excellence(that's a good thing) and protecting the consumer, and like it has been said before, that is great with mechanical objects(cars, bed springs, ect), but we cannot "ensure" that the "quality control" of breeding live animals(or reproduction of humans) will result in perfection. It never will. The bottom line is this, I think. Those who have stepped up to the plate as stewards of this magnificent breed, has to do the right thing and what is right in their heart. Those who will just stand on the sidelines, chanting and finger pointing, driven by their emotions and hormones, can continue to do that, so they will have something to do in this world. The two sides will never compromise, nor should they have to. It all comes down to what D.H. so eloquently stated, we are going to have to manage the situation. This management team has to consist of both buyer and breeder. I have 1 dog out there that was placed in another home by the buyer, because his newborn son was allergic to dogs. Everytime I run into him(he's a co-worker), I ask him about the dog and he promises to send pictures. I was told by another co-worker, that he had to give the dog up. That same idiot, would be making a post saying what a poor breeder I was if he had health issues with the dog, yet he CLEARLY breeched our contract by re-placing the dog himself. Bite me!! Breeders are not born with horns protruding out of their foreheads! Stephen

Thanks, Sunshine. I appreciate that very much.

very well said Sunshine