Quite Disturbed... does this happen often ? - Page 3

Hello, i do agree with Martin, once the puppy is sold its gone. I do not have the control over the dog anymore, nor do i know how the dog is handeld or treated. Does that mean i am not responsible ? I dont think so ! Will i try to check that i find decent homes for my pups ... you bet i will. Do i have the garanty that the buyer is telling me the truth ? Nope, and i'm not with the FBI to perform a background check ! Blitzen, with all due respect, but its a whole different world you are living in ! To assume, just because a breeder wont take back a pup, that he just breeds because of the money, is not more than a joke ! And that joke has been beaten so often !! But there is always room enough to top..... for instance to tell somebody to stop breeding if not doing the way one thinks is right !! Anyway, Echo, i would check every single case. If i would have the feeling the person is really in need, i would do everything i can to solve the problem.If i would have the feeling that the person just wants to get rid of the dog...... nope, the person will get my advice and i will keep my ears open. Hey, after all, i am a breeder..... i dont not run a shelter ! Call me heartles or whatever you want, just dont tell me that i do not take care of my dogs ! Just my two cents. Regards Ulli

You do it your way, Ulli and Martin. Keep up the good work. May I ask how many litters you breed per year? Only GSD's?

BTW, Ulli, re-read my posts in this thread. I did not say that breeders who won't take back their dogs breed only for the money or don't love their dogs. I also didn't say they were heartless or don't take care of their dogs. YOU said all that, not me. Let's get it right. Don't put words in my mouth. I am wondering how many reading this thread now have the idea that they can breed more litters since it's OK to not take them back. In the US most hobby breeders I know take back their dogs no questions asked. I think most on this board do the same. I realize that does not usually happen elsewhere and dogs from Germany are a done deal period. I am not living in a fantasy world, I just travel in a different circle where breeders are hobby breeders, they take responsibility and don't make excuse after excuse for why they should not take back their dogs blaming it all on stupid owners. They do not breed more litters than they can assume responsiblity for. Yes, it drives them nuts; it's a pain in the butt, but to them it's part of the hobby of breeding dogs. They screen their buyers, see to it that the parents have all their health clearances, puppies are vaccinated, free of parasites and in good health when they leave home. Sometimes that is just not good enough and the owners decide they don't want the dogs, so they take them back rather than have them end up in a shelter or dead. Paying a lot of money for a dog is no guarantee that dog will not be given away or dumped on a rescue. If the dogs are old, sick, aggressive, whatever, then they act accordingly. I've had to put down a young return due to temperament issues, but I was glad I got the dog back rather than have him injure someone. For the record, I am not saying that you who do not have a policy to take back your dogs are unethical, don't love your dogs, breed only for money. It's your decision. I do apologise for saying you should not breed if you aren't prepared to be responsible for those dogs. You can breed all you wany, none of my business. I was responding to the original question on this thread.

Blitzen writes: "In the US most hobby breeders I know take back their dogs no questions asked. I think most on this board do the same. I realize that does not usually happen elsewhere and dogs from Germany are a done deal period. I am not living in a fantasy world, I just travel in a different circle where breeders are hobby breeders, they take responsibility and don't make excuse after excuse for why they should not take back their dogs blaming it all on stupid owners." Reply: Part 1 It has nothing to do with excuses. I would rather have one dog euthanized than take it back and expose many others to potential disease and parasitic infection, which can and do cause pain and suffering before ultimately becoming fatal. Inexperienced young "beginning breeders" have many delusions about right and wrong, just and unjust. No excuses, just facts, taking puppies and dogs back is unethical and bad management for the health of your dogs and puppies. "Buyer Blues" are not your responsibility.

Reply: Part 2 As for the "hobby breeders," they are as bad as puppy mills, in my opinion. They are not breeding for sport, exhibition, show, service, or improvement of the breed. They are breeding for extra cash. A little cash in pocket is all well and fine, but not at someone else's expense, and their cash is coming from selling junk puppies that end up in pounds and on the streets. If you breed, it is your responsibility to make sure that you are making a positive impact either on your breed of choice, or in the exhibition or working class of your choosing. There are too many uninformed, yet overly opinionated people out there who automatically think that "dog breeder" is a bad word because of the over population of pounds due to unscrupulous puppy mills and backyard breeders who do not care about their dogs. True animal lovers are hurt in the backlash because while they are working hard to make sure that their animals are loved and well taken care of, they are painted with the broad and dirty brush of the puppy mills. Perhaps you should do a bit of research before you decide what is right and wrong for other people. Perhaps you should listen to people of experience who have been through the anguish of staying up all night trying to nurse sick puppies back to health after they have been exposed to disease from "off the yard," only to have them die in your arms at dawn. Maybe, just maybe, it is not an issue of selfishness and greed, but an issue of insuring that other innocent puppies are not hurt or killed due to careless negligence by new pet owners.

Martin, can we please just agree to disagree? This is really getting way out of hand.

My hat is off to you Martin! And Ulli. How refreshing to have someone share the sentiment that there is actually such a thing as buyer responsibility. I am always puzzled that is seems quite allright for a buyer to shirk their responsibilities, discard a pup at will if they must, or simply want. Yet a breeder must be responsible til the end of a puppy's days? It is the irresponsibe owner that fills the shelters, not the responsible breeder. Blitzen, if breeders would truly "not breed more litters than they can assume responsiblity for", than even a single litter per year would be too much, because who can realistically keep extra space available for every pup that they have produced? One litter per year at 6 pups per litter makes 48 dogs in 8 years, which all should still be alive by then, and could all possibly come "home" at some point. C'mon. I absolutely disagree that breeding automatically entails a life long committment to each pup produced. It is nice to stay in touch and get the occasional feedback. But when I sell a pup or a dog and I have spoken to the buyer about their pending purchase, the buyer assumes full responsibility from the time they take possession. If I buy a car and no longer want it I cannot just abandon it by the side of the road or give it back to the dealer. A dealer would not take a potential wreck back either, not even for free. If he would take something back it would have to be inspected first and it would have to be in a re-sellable condition. Some people out there still dump their cars and make it other peoples problems, but there are rules for these things, just like there are at least some ethical rules that apply to the puppy buyer, not just the breeder. If someone is in a real bind it is one thing to assist the buyer and help find a new home (many breeders have people that would be interested in a "rescue" and can hook up the involved parties with each other), but that does not automatically mean the pup has to be taken back. No pup or dog needs to be abandoned by a breeder, but I fully support the above statement that a breeder is not a shelter, or a dumping ground for other peoples problems. The buyer does have friends and family that should be able to help out in time of real need. Hardly any buyer will ever find themselves in such a dire need that puppy needs to go "now". If they have waited for things to get to that point then again - their problem, not the breeders. I also disagree on the pricing comment. People who attach more value to what they have purchased will take better care of it. For someone $500 is a ton of money, others need to spend $5000 before they go hmmmm. The actual figure is not important, just that if someone has to spend enough to consider it valuable there is less of a chance that a pup is just an impulse purchase. You hardly ever hear of any returns when it comes to imports, just because a buyer can no longer keep the dog. IMO that is because of the extra time and the extra expense involved . It is overall a much more thought over purchase process.

I have seen too often people taking puppies to inappropriate places prior to all the vaccines. We even read about it here on the board. A puppy has limited, to no, protection until all vaccines are given and working. I would not blame any breeder who refused to take a puppy, or young dog back, unless it was as part of a hip/elbow garuantee. Would I try to help find another home for one? You bet. Would I take back a puppy that had been exposed to who knows what at dog parks and elsewhere beginning at seven-weeks of age? I don't know, but I would not say "bad breeder" if their decission was to refuse.

DH, come on now, you know very well that no one expects to return imports becasue they know up front that it's not going to happen. It has nothing to do with what they pay. Listen, don't take back your dogs if that's what you feel is the right thing to do. I don't really give a $hit what any of you do. I'm not here to impress anyone or to sell anyone dogs so don't need to be politically correct or try to convince anyone that my way is the right way in order to sell my dogs. I don't just talk the talk, I've walked the walk too, bred my first litter in 1972 and made the committment to stand behind every dog I sold from that point on. If I wanted to sell live animals with any less of a committment, I'd have bought livestock and ate my mistakes. Take them back, don't take them back. Breed litter after litter, breed one litter a year. Whatever..........

Blitz, you have never had an import so how can you provide any qualified comment? Not all importers or German breeders are the scummy greedy a**holes as they are portrayed here. After all how did that German dog ever make across the big water to begin with if it was not for imports and more so quality imports, right! You'd need to be on this side of the fence to be able to comment with any authority. My little network may be a bit different because we do offer guarantees, but hardly need to uphold any because we do things properly to begin with. And I do get mails with questions and feedback years after, and am always there for questions and problems. To solve problems, not to allow others to dump theirs on me. When I place pups out of my own breeding, I place them properly to begin with, so that chance of return is nearly nil, and so far has been nil. Since I live on both continents I know very well what is going on on both sides of the big water and also what is expected. If you did not care, you would not comment. But don't brush aside comments that do not agree with you just because you are at a loss for argument. There are other ways to stand behind what a breeder produces, that does not mean that a breeder has to become someone elses garbage heap. That is all that is being said here. Whatever on the other hand has never solved much... But what about that buyer responsibility? That is a topic that never gets much attention here.