Top Breeder Ethics - Reply to Wienerau - Page 5

Hi Blitzen, I don¿t know where your Info¿s from but there is ranking of HD on dogs and the GSD is ranked on 34 place. Which means there 33 other dogbreeding with much bigger problems with HD. Regards Micke

Don't you think that a good Radiologist would be able to tell if a pup was jumped at a young age? Wouldn't the damage show up? Not only in hips but elbows also? If there was any type of trauma, it would show up. Regarding nutrition, Vets and breeders are not schooled in nutrition as they should be. X, Y or Z dog food claims to have everything in it for the animal, but dog food is not the be all or do all for dogs. If that were the case, no dogs would have hip or elbow problems. Why aren't we eating it if it was that great? Everything plays a part! Genetics being #1. Just my opinion tho. I still think that he should be given SOMETHING! There is something not right here! Dawn

Dawn, x-rays do tell the wrong story if they are not taken properly. It is a reasonable request of a breeder to require that a poor x-ray be taken again. The quality of x-rays has breeders that know this fact search high and low for a good vet that takes good x-rays. I was devastated when a previous vet of mine went back to the UK, luckily one of his staff had the magic hands (she was always handling the back end of the dog) and she is still there. In southern Germany a vet named Krafzel is very well known for taking good x-rays and breeders drive huge distances to get their dog x-rayed there. Peope would not do that unless they knew it was important. We have had several instances within our network where initial x-rays would have resulted in a failing grade, not because of a poor hip, but because of a poor x-ray. Proper x-rays at a vet like Mrs. Krafzel told a different story. She is by no means perfect, one that she predicted would come back with a1 came back with a3. That can happen too. So x-rays do lie... *** Blitzen, the small percentage of dogs that are bred with noch zugelassen hips really does not influence the overall picuture much. Considering that about 82% of the breeding population already is a1 and a2, about 12% is a3, and considering the very few dogs with a3 that actually do get bred will not spoil the batch so to speak, How do we know that? Because the numbers of a1 and 2 have remained fairly steady over the years. Your comment that perfect hips beget perfect hips is only annectodal. Studies on that subject have been very small scale and for much too short a time to give the clear picture a breeder would need. Yes, hips can improve to a certain point with breeding better hips to better hips, but will never reach any point of perfection. Consider that HD certification has been available since 1966 and in 40 years HD has not been erradicated despite controlled breeding, then logic dictates that it is not quite as easy as that. I also wholeheartedly agree with Micke that environmental influence plays a huge role in the development of a dogs hips. Also how a dog is built. Interesting that the pug and the bulldog are nearly 3/4 dysplastic and sighthouds are nearly free of these problems, even the large sighthoud breeds. BTW, HD is not a modern problem. Canine skelletons found in Persia that are 5thousand years old have shown signs of dysplasia.

Micke, if you are quoting OFA statistics, keep in mind that they do not see most xrays of dysplastic dogs since most of us only submit the films we know will pass. Many of the breeds placing ahead of the GSD are those with a very small population; the ratings are based on the percentage of xrays submitted vs the number of xrays that were dysplastic. The total number vs the total number might present a very different picture. I think the OFA sees far more films of GSD's than they do Neopolitan Mastiffs for example and probably see more dysplastic GSD's than any other breed. That information may be on their website, I'll check. Actually, I didn't say there was a lot of HD in the breed, I was responding to Dawn's observation - "will HD ever be stamped oput?" It seems that there are several cases of HD in just about every litter of GSD's whelped which seems higher than in most other breeds I know about. Also, some GSD breeders are frequently getting severe HD; that is not in keeping with the rest of large dog breeders I know. How many litters of GSD's are produced where every dog has hips that would receive an OFA clearance or an "a" stamp?

I didn't say perfect hips beget perfect hips, I said you have a better chance of getting the best hips by not using mildly dysplastic dogs in a breeding program.

Dawn, vets are generalists. There are very few if any veterinarian radiologists. And no, you cannot tell from an x-ray of the deterioration that you see comes from overuse or genetics. In an older dog that has once had good hips it may be safe to assume that deterioration of a joint at a later time comes from physical stress. But some experts think that such deterioration too is part of HD, even though every joint will show wear and tear with time. It would be safe to assume that with more use there is more wear. Some expert seem to think that regardless of use and age the joint should not be affected. Interesting that the experts cannot even come to a consensus on basic issues like that. Injury you may be able to see if bones were actually fractured and then mended again, but that too would need a person experienced enough to detect such signs. Human radiologists even miss these things - I know from personal experience. Trauma that did not result in a fracture you will probably not see. Trauma can result in overuse of one joint by favoring the other for example. How can you tell that later? Diet is an interesting part of HD development. So far we have not had a single case of HD in the dogs that have followed our feeding regimen. Knock on wood. Different lines, different HD results of parents, different ZWs. Maybe just luck? Not so sure... But it is only part of the overall picture. Diet cannot counteract physical stress, trauma, over- or underweight, too much time in crates, wrong floors, no exercise at all, etc.

Bltizen, you might have a better change of getting better hips, but not best hips... :o) Any HD certification method that allows poor x-rays not to be sent in will present a tweaked picture of what is actually going on. The OFA certifies a very small percentage of the GSD born in the US. The last two years alone have produced as many AKC pups as have been OFA certified in the last 40 years. If you would assume the same numbers over time then roughly 5% get OFA'd. In Germany about 1/3 of the anual puppy crop gets a-stamped. So overall the German numbers, though not perfect, are probably more representative than the OFA numbers. Getting an OFA or a-stamp is the owners decision and we also know that many pet owners do not care to x-ray, until something seems amiss that is. Incidentally, the GSD has improved in OFA ranking, it is now 39th. Doing better than Rottweiler with about the same number of dogs certified and better than Golden Retriever, with far more dogs certified. There are many more large breeds that have worse stats than the shepherd.

oops, that was supposed to be better chance

Hi Blitzen I just wanted to respond to your question " I don't quite understand why anyone would buy an imported puppy in this day and age. Off the top of my head I can think of at least a dozen people on this board and others who are breeding very good GSD's right here in the US. Yes, they are charging more for those puppies, but they guarantee them in writing and in the long run no one is saving one cent by importing. " While I do NOT have German Showlines, I have Working lines, I am one of those people who chose to import a puppy with no guarantee (horrors). I made an educated decision that I am happy with. The price of my puppy including shipping from Belgium was 1/2 the price of buying a pup of similar bloodlines/titled breed surveyed parents from a USA breeder. Sure the USA breeder gives a guarantee but so what?? If the pup is dysplastic I will get a replacement (at my cost for shipping another puppy to me as I live out in the middle of now where). I did the math and if my current pup is dysplastic I could buy ANOTHER pup from the same breeder at the same price and it would in the long run cost the same amount of $$ as the guaranteed pup from an American breeder and the shipping of his replacement. So for me, I was happy and am happy. I got the puppy I wanted from a reputable knowlegable breeder who actually titles and shows his dogs so knew which pup to send me to have the temperament I asked for. And now at 18 months I couldn't ask for a better dog. JMHO Palf

DH, in my experience with my Malamutes, the better the hips on the parents and g-parents, the better hips I've had on the progeny. I don't know if the mode of inheritance and expression in the GSD varies from that of other breeds or not.