Top Breeder Ethics - Reply to Wienerau - Page 1

We were just having a wonderful discussion on this board, one that was attended by interesting and knowledgable people (all over the world). I would kindly request the Moderator NOT to interfere, as this subject is of interest to everyone in the GSD-scene. Thank you. Let me pick up the thread: Wienerau wrote: "Nice thread but unneccessarry. Due to the german "Oberstes Verwaltungsgericht" (it¿s the highest instance for problems like this) you can¿t expect from a breeder to give you any guarantee or warranty or what else for hips etc.. As lomg it¿s is a breeder who has been breeding successful or healthy puppies for a longer period and as long he hasn¿t sold you a puppy from "sick" parents. So if the parents both are healthy and have no problems with the hips there is nothing you can do about it. That¿s also the reson I guess, why you won¿t get such a generous offer from a german breeder. They take it granted, that you are informed about and willing to take the risks there are buying a puppy. I really like the comparisson with the stock market. Doesn¿t matter how much research or preparation you have done, there is still a risk left. The question is, do you want to take the risk or better not. I also agree, that it¿s a real shame if somebody tells you, you have bought a pefect puppy and you should really start to run if somebody promise you VA. But in the end it¿s the way the free market works. Go to a store and ask for a TV e.g. the guy who wants to sell will also promise a lot. No one complains about that. If you are disapointed with his product then you buy the next one somewhere else. To Jantie, I know it¿s always sad if things doesn¿t turn out the way one hopes. But that is a common fact in breeding. I can understand your disapointment but still I guess you have to take it as a part of the learning. I apologize right here if this statement seems to be hard, but if you ask anybody beeing in sheperds for a while this is what you are going hear. Micke" My reply vanished. I will post it again: Hi Micke! Thank you for your opinion. Let me tell you this: Your FATHER would have traded the dog in. For sure! I have come to Viernheim on different occasions. Walter referred to me as: "the Belgian man with the tie" (as I used to combine my visits to his dogs with my commercial activities at the time, in Frankfurt for instance, and I always came well dressed. Note that he was standing in his swimsuit, which of course was funny.) After several visits, he invited me to come and visit again (in jeans) with my wife and daughter (guess he wanted to know exactly where the dog would end up, what the people would be like and all). I remember very well how Zamb barked at 3 year old Lisa when we came up to the gate, and she was scared to death, Zamb was indeed a very impressive dog. Now in my search for a pup, if I remember well in the summer of '93, he promessed me one (a male) for the coming spring. When I asked him if I should pay a deposit up front or make some kind of written reservation, he smiled at me and said: "Sehe ich denn SO aus? Sie kriegen schon einen Rüden von mir!" freely translated as follows: "Do I look like I'm the man who wants that? You WILL get a male from me". It was then perfectly clear that he would stick to his promess. And I knew I could trust him all the way. His given word was ensurance enough. Due to my divorce later that year, I had to cancel my request. But I know for sure, that Walter was to be trusted and that I would have received a dog from him, as he had given me his word. No doubt in my mind whatsoever. A word of honour, and "a promess", are still paramount for some people. I daresay I hope YOU will take after your father.

I absolutely agree Jantie the value of Word is still there for some people. But it is becoming a rearest virtue. Therefore you are never sure of what you get even from a top breeder. You have to be lucky to find a good people who are not only after money and who mean what they say. You were lucky to be in contact with a breeder like Mr.Walter Martin. But there are stories where people are being cheated even by the topmost and so called reputed breeders. If by chance you get cheated you have to take it as learning experience.

Jantie is not right! A breeder trys to mate two dogs with high potential for good puppies - good character, good anathomy and movement and, of course also good health. But no breeder has any influence on this. Nobody is able to plan the future of a puppy according to these facts. Otherwise everybody would keep a VA dog or a competitor of the national trials. Jantie wants the breeders to substitute a dog that shows hip problems. According to Jantie it is a MUST to substitute the dog - breeder ethics ... Because everybody expects a dog with perfect hips and if not the breeder is responsibel for this problem. If Jantie is right, a breeder should also substitute a dog that shows no quality for shows or trials. Because everybody wants his puppy to get the best in shows or trials. According to Jantie the breeder is responsible for the whole future of a puppy. Is that right??? I am sure that nobody here would start a discussion here because his puppy did not reach the expected anathomy or character. We should look at the matter from that point of view - than everybody should be able to recognize that Jantie is completely wrong!!! Why should it be different according to hips?

The only thing I'm saying is, that if you promote selling dogs that meet the SV-standard on the level of Kör- and Leistungszucht within same SV, and expect customers to pay the price for that, the dogs indeed need to meet that standard. Nothing more, nothing less. You certainly must be very well aware of the fact that dogs with HD and ED do NOT meet that standard? Nobody is talking VA- or V-dogs here, nor does anyone expect BSP-Leistungen (BSP-performances), a simple SG will do nicely, thank you. If the toplevel-breeder is not capable of delivering just that, he must trade the dog in for another pup. Breeders, of course, will go for a "carte blanche" in this domain. Customers should not let them get away with that. You're not saying: "Let us keep the healthy ones, and sell the HD-doggies, floppy ears and oversized to ignorant people!" are you?

Here we are Jantie! And now start the discussion again - is a breeder responsible for every result and is there a MUST for him to give the disappointed client a new dog instead of the "bad" one? But who decides what is "good" or "bad"? You claimed that "SG" is the level. Other people expect V, some people are happy when the dog is able to reach any rating in show or trial like a G. Some people expect a1 and will never breed with a dog below. The SV allows to breed with a3. So again - who will decide about "good" or "bad"??? Who cares for the owner? Who guarantees that he is treating the puppy right? Should the breeder stay responsible for wrong and heavy feeding, for wrong training, for few socialicing??? Besides this, in some countries the clients insist on guarantees - but also have no problem in paying a lot more for a puppy with guarantee than eg. German people ...

Hi Jantie, its sad to hear that you have health issues with your dog. If i understood right, your dog is already a little older and has hipproblems. Well, your last input sounds like you expect the breeder to know how good or bad the hips of the former puppys are after a years time.......hm,geee would that be nice !! How can you give a garantie on something nobody can possibly predict ?? I just have my first litter whelped weeks ago, sure hope they will do ok. HOPE. I did, what i think every breeder does : My bitch is healthy has "a" hips, father is healthy has "a" hips. Checked both sides back.....ok, looked for sound nerves in both lines.......colour in both lines.....etc.... and the rest was : PUT THE BEST TOGETHER AND HOPE FOR THE BEST !! The pups were born......i took care of them and her mom....i deworm them.....i feed them the best food....when 7 weeks i have them given their shots and have a vet do a health certificate......have them tatooed...... THEN I GIVE THEM AWAY TO PEOPEL I HARDLY KNOW ! Will the future owner feed the pup right......will he take care of the activity of the dog......will he prevent that the dog runs up & down the stairs....will he take care of shots etc. ...... I could go on & on & on ! Then after a years time i am expected to listen to something like that ?? I am sure, most breeders, as i would do, will try to find a solution that suits all partys involved. It sure does not help to reach a solution if talked about on the net.....but hey, we live in a free country! Oh, just one more little thing......did your ever hear someone complain about a top dog he bought ? That dog was bought just like all the others ! Excuse my bad english, for this is not my mother language. Kind Regards Ulli Dresbach www.vom-sankt-martiner-tal.de

If things go Wrong its always the breeder to blame, if the puppie turns out to be a top dog, nobody is giving credit to the breeder. From the age of 8 weeks when the puppie go's to his new home to the age off 12 months there are to many things wich the breeder has no controll off. I have never had a client that told me " i have made some mistakes " during this period, beqause the only thing they want is to get a new dog without cost offcours. What about meeting in between!! Oh no the breeder is to blame. Is this realistic i ask myself. Dont ever forget we are dealing with a living animal. You always can find a minority off breeders that are not ok. Should we therefore blame all off them? The moment you dicide to purchase you must realise that you have a responsability on your "dog and money". Many people give good money but dont realise they have to take care off there investment. Nobody go's to bye a car and starts to crach it immediatly, we take care off it. This go's even more for that little puppie. As Walter Martin once said to me " the real German Sheperd lovers carry him in there heart" like in marriedge for good and for bad in sickness and in healt. Thats what i want to say to this matter. Take good care off him ore her, they are friends for life.( there life)

Jantie, I have a question for you: Since you are saying that a reputable breeder should replace any puppy which does not conform to the standard, would you demand that as well if you found out the dog turned out to be oversized or is missing a tooth or the ears are soft? There are lots of things that go wrong in a dog and according to statistics only about 15 percent go on to be breed surveyed. Of course, in order to survey your dog you need to have a SchH or HGH title. What if the puppy does not have the drive? Who can promise that? Certainly not a breeder who sells his puppy at 8 weeks of age. If I remember correctly you had stated that you expected the dog to go through his breed survey. When it comes to health issues, the breeder should certainly have guarantees (or warranties, for a better term), but when it comes to 'cosmetic' issues, there should be a limits. Just my opinion!!! I do think that you are entitled to another puppy, if there is HD. Definitely!! But contrary to some beliefs, it is not customary to give a warranty for that by German breeders. My very first puppy came from a famous kennel (in 1990). She had severe HD and developed (and died of it) canine leukemia at almost two years of age. According to the vet, it was the worst case he had ever seen in his career, and my vet was already close to 60 years old. A friend of mine told the breeder and asked (about the possibility) for a replacement or a discount. The breeder just laughed! He does not remember my name of course, but I never forgot. Chris

Thank you all for your time and your opinions which I appreciate. I can however see how some still try to defend the breeders if they don't stick to the (ethical) rule: "bad dog = new pup". With no avail. I realise they are only defending their own businesses. Some even go as far as to pretend they never heard about this "rule". Now let me offer you a list of answers from top-breeders in Germany. When questioned if they would "replace" a dog, in case it would not live up to the SV-Standard, they answered as follows: (each new sentence is a quote from another top-breeder) „...selbstverständlich bekommt der Käufer einen starken Preisnachlass wenn der gekaufte Hund solch einen Fehler aufweist“ „...grundsätzlich bei HD und ED Austauschgarantie gebe, dass heißt bei beiden Gebrechen wird der Welpe kostenlos durch einen anderen Welpen ersetzt... Bei Hoden und Zahnfehler lasse ich dies dem Käufer frei, entweder halber Kaufpreis retour und Hund behalten oder Tausch gegen einen Welpen aus den nächsten Würfen“ „...Jeder, der gesundheitliche Probleme mit einem unserer Hunde hat, kann auf uns zählen. Sei es ein Preisnachlass, wenn z. Bsp. nach Wochen ein Hoden weg ist, oder bei HD, wenn gewünscht ein neuer Welpe, entweder kostenlos oder zu einem geringen Kostenbeitrag. Wenn tatsächlich etwas schief geht, sei es HD oder was auch immer, leiden wir mit und wären die letzten, die nicht finanziell entgegenkommen würden“ „...ich habe in der Vergangenheit immer Ersatz angeboten, ja sogar das „A“ garantiert“ „...wenn gravierende Fehler (Erbbedingte) bei den Welpen auftreten würden, wäre ich sicherlich der Letzte der über einen Ausgleich nicht mit sich reden lassen würde“ „...bei Retourgabe den Kaufpreis, abzüglich der Züchterkosten (Decktaxe, Verbandskosten, Futterkosten, Tierarztkosten) zurückzubekommen, oder einen Ersatzwelpen zu bekommen“ „...Fall1: Welpe ist für Zucht - Ersatz (Kaufpreis/ Welpe) wird angeboten, Fall2: Welpe für Familie - Preisminderung möglich, Fall3: Welpe für Familie - Ersatz(Kaufpreis/ Welpe)“ „...bekommt er so schnell wie möglich von mir einen neuen Welpen“ „...sollte solch ein Fehler auftreten, wie Sie es erwähnen, bekommt der Käufer anstandslos einen neuen Welpen“ „...einem aktiven SV-Mann gebe ich persönlich keinen fehlerhaften Welpen, sollte der Hund doch einen Zahnfehler aufweisen oder genetisch bedingt nicht zuchtfähig werden kann man sicher über einen Ersatz in Form eines anderen Welpen reden“ „...if you had purchased a puppy from us and then it developed a problem which meant the puppy could not be bred from, we would replace the puppy with another“ „...wenn hier ganz klar erkennbare Erbfehler vorliegen, biete ich immer Ersatz an. Das heisst es gibt einen Welpenersatz, bzw. eine Geldrückgabe!!“ „...Zusicherung, dass bei später eingetretener schwerer ED oder HD er von mir einen Ersatzwelpen gestellt bekommt“ "Wir vom XXX bieten grundsätzlich neuen Ersatz an wenn der Hund HD oder andere gravierende Fehler haben sollte. Denn wir sind der Meinung das nur ein zufriedener Kunde die beste Reklame für eínen Zwinger ist." "Wenn ein Hund nicht Körfähig ist, bekommt der ambitionierte Hundesportler einen Ersatzhund." Please feel free to translate from German into English. (Basically they all say they will refund/replace when pup is not "Körfähig".) I will not disclose all of their names. Let me just tell you "von Karthago", "von der Schiffslache" and "von der Felsenmühle" are amongst them. So we are definately on the top-level of GSD-sport. My point stands: serious and ethical breeders will always deliver another pup and not let you down. Did I pick the wrong breeder, or does the common law not include the world's best?

Hi Chris, my comment crossed yours. Is it ok when I answer you later tonite? I will be back.