Top Breeder Ethics - Reply to Wienerau - Page 2

Moderators only delete subject IF the name calling etc starts. So, double ck on the terms of service and make sure the subjects stays on track.

Jantie, have you ever tried to breed puppies on your own? Have you ever tried to make the best decission to breed the best possible puppies and then none of them was able to compete in a show or a trial due to several reasons (anathomy, character, ears, teeth ...)? If not, than do not know what you are talking about! You blame breeders - where else would you find a good dog? Let¿s change the point of view. You buy a puppy and after two years the puppy reached breed survey and a good result in show. The dog is ready for breeding. Would it be fair than, if the breeder contacts you to get more money or a litter due to the fact that the puppy is now much more of worth? Answer the questions posted here, than we can start discussing. Besides this - the fact, that you had the chance to know Walter Martin does not mean that you know anything about GSD or even breeding!!!

Oh and Jantie - there is no "rule" for these cases ... Therefore you can make a contract.

If you want a puppy that is warranteed/guaranteed against health issues that should prevent it from being bred or conformation faults that should prevent it from receiving a KKL1 or 2 (or an SG, whatever), then buy one from a breeder who offers a replacement/refund policy in writing. Run from the breeder who tells you you need to feed this or that and do this or that with the puppy or return it prior to their honoring the contract. Yes, some owners are not the brightest bulbs and they will do things that can cause damage to the dogs. Sometimes puppies get into the wrong homes in spite of how much the breeder screens the buyer. If this happens, the breeder may not want this owner to have another of his/her dogs. In that case, the contract should clearly state that the dog will either be replaced of a portion of the price refunded to the buyer, breeder's choice. No one I know makes money selling dogs unless they have a harem of brood bitches and an on-going supply of puppies. So, sometimes you might get bit in the butt and lose a few hundred by refunding on a puppy that was not fed Super Duper Dog Chow or was raised in a kitchen on a slippery floor or whose stools weren't scooped up the moment the dog moved it's bowels. It's the price of doing business, just take the loss and move on instead of trying to make everyone jump through your outragously stupid hoops. It doesn't make you look clever or ethical, it makes you look petty and it's pet shop tactics. If you make a breeding stand by it, replace or refund on the dogs that you sell for breeding or else place them all as pets at a pet price. I really haven't the faintest clue how anyone can possibly expect the breed to prosper in this country without a little cooperation from breeders to help each other out now and then. What about the newbies, they are the furutre of the breed? The fortress mentality I see on these boards does nothing whatsoever to help the breed.

My friend Jantie, how are you.Wow never imagined when I started the topic of the Wildsteiger Land litter that it would turn out this way.But I am glad it did.I'm still on your side Jantie, and only through ignorance and lack of integrity can anyone not agree with you.I translated the replies from the German breeders that you posted, and I see that they too are "REAL" breeders.Anyone who does will not replace a dog that has HD is not a breeder with the best interests of the breed in mind.Without a guarantee or warranty this should still not be a problem.It's not a matter of whether or not the breeder gave a guarantee against HD,it's a matter of integrity.It is true that nobody can give a 100% guarantee that a dog will not develope HD.Unfortunately hip displaysia is something that is evident in our breed.But at the same time it is a breeder's responsibility to correct this problem, And in my opinion by replacing the dog.This should be enforced, because if breeders keep selling diplastic dogs and they get away with not having to replace them, then they will only continue.It is human nature to do so.Then somewhere down the line one of the owners of these dogs will think to themselves - "I paid a lot of money to a top breeder for my dog and it's displastic, it would be okay for me to breed it and hope for the best,maybe I can make some money". Think about it people, it's not to hard.

Hi everybody, now here we are again.....mseebran, what exactly makes you the judge to say who is a "real" breeder & who isn¿t ?? You are talking about selling displastic dogs.....please correct me, but if you are able to determen HD in a 8 week old puppy, you defienitly should become a vet, i would be a client of yours in a heartbeat ! And uuuhhh, dont let them get away with it....what a bunch of crab ! I dont know, but most breeders here sell their pups for around 600 - 700 €uros, somewhat around 700 - 800 Bucks.......uuuhhh they are making a furtune !! I dont know if you ever thought about how much a nice bitch is , how much the studfee runs, the shots for the puppy....etc. I dont want to make money out of my breedings, but i also do not want to put money on top of it !What a ballony ! Now dont get me wrong, i feel sorry for Jantie to make such a experience, but it happens. Like i stated before, to have this kind of discussion on a board like this, will not help anyone, it will only stirr up things. I truly believe that there should have been a solution that would have served both, seller & buyer. mseebran, no harm, i agree with you, if someone knowingly breeds 2 breedunworthy animals together, and sells it as top notch animals ....go get him ! But most breeders i know will do their homeworkand check all kinds of stuff before choosing the sire for their bitch. Kind Regards Ulli Dresbach

Hi to all. As I wrote earlier I think it¿s sad what happend to Jantie. But if talking about Walter, he saw breeding as a kind of gambling, sometimes you win sometimes you lose. And everybody wanting a puppy was aware of that, as he was known for doing risky combinations. Perhaps that¿s why I can¿t remember anybody asking for replacement. Sure if you told him the situation you would have had good chances to buy another puppy maybe even a bit cheaper but a puppy replacement for free because of e.g. bad hips? He¿d asked you to stop kidding. If you call this a lack of ethics, well you are free to have your own opinoin. But please, I don¿t believe anybody has to tell me how, what or who Walter was. Best Regards Micke

Buying puppies from Europe is a gamble. it could be the next champion or not. If you want some gaurantees as to how the dog is going to turn out then pay the big bucks and buy a older dog. I have bought puppies from people I know and trust and have done buisness with and always get what I was told, a healthy puppy from the lines I wanted. As far as what it will turn out to be later it's a risk i take. But it is an informed risk. If someone is breeding dogs they know have HD then go after them.

Wow Jantie, you cry like a baby!!! Shit happens all the time and there is no difference in HD or any other part of life ... You talk about ethics in breeding but obviously never did breed on your own. The same like the pope would start a discussion about kamasutra ... Just answer the questions posted: Would you expect a replacement if the puppy had no chances to reach a SchH title or a show rating due to skill or anathomy? Would you agree to pay extra to the breeder if the dog reaches breed survey? Did you mention a guarantee in the contract?

Jan: Im sorry but you have now 'forced' for the removal of the post which was above due to comments you placed. Name calling and such are Unnecessary and UNrealistic. We have contracts for these matters. In europe they don't. Therefore, buying a pup is a crapshoot. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. Period. Any business is a live and learn situation. & my advice, buy a 1 yr old with A1 hips, the right temperament for training/breeding and conformation, to avoid this.