mittelwest kennels - Page 3

Sweetpea, you cannot judge a whole breed by a single dog, neither by the top dog nor by the lesser kind. A year ago your experience was so limited that you could not tell what abilities your dog had or lacked. Since then you have had "all" your dog trained - do tell, how many have you had trained, just out of curiosity? Dogs for sport and home protection and K9 are all very different. A top sport dog may not protect you at all but may be a rocket on the SchH field. As long as that sleeve is there... A good protection dog may not get even get a passing score but could "impress" novices to the sport with kick-ass bite work. Quite possible that such a dog lacks the precision and control needed for the big points. Just a hard bite is not worth much in a trial if it will not translate into points... Realistically speaking, with the limited experience you had when you bought that dog, a kick-ass dog may have shown you to your own door! Also realistically speaking, most "personal protection" needs never require a dog to make direct contact with an assailant. In most cases a dog that goes woofwoofwoof and makes a big fuss at it, looks impressive will be enough of a deterrent. If someone is crazed enough to risk confrontation with a dog of the size and reputation as a shepherd, then chances are the dog will have little chance of success. There is a great different between training situations and sport and real life. Many dogs when confronted seriously, meaning they get the snot kicked out of them, get clubbed, stabbed or shot will simply.. fail! That IS the reality of things. Different story with a working K9 that is working that sort of thing every day, gets stronger with every live bite it gets, and gets regular training for this sort of work, in the proper environment. Most of these dogs are reliable (though some fail too on occasion). But will you really ever be faced with a situation a cop will be faced with that he needs a dog for? Nope. Never mind the liability a dog that sets a bite in a real life situation is going to be for you, whether it was justified or not. And how much of a liability such a dog can become after he had the taste of his first live bite. cont...

cont... As for bite work performance at a Sieger show, first of all go and look at the live action yourself. I have not seen a single SchH event in which two dogs are doing protection side by side at the same time, and where so many poeple are so close up to the dogs. The large SchH trials like the BSP or WUSV are inside a stadium that has the spectators behind ad boards, strong fences etc. At the BSZS the people are right there, trying to get as close as possible. And the BSZS dogs have to do more than bite work, they also have to show. The average working line dog gets shown once, maybe a second time of the first show rating was not so great. The average working line enthusiast has one or two, or maybe at the most three dogs in training at once. Most competitors only trial one dog at a time, who gets all the attention, gets trained for the task every day. The average show kennel that really gets into showing, quickly has a string of dogs to show, and need to keep the SchH training up with. Which means each dogs training time is far less than that of any average SchH competitor. Try finding 2 year old working line dogs that already have SchH3 and then need to perform in front of a crowd at such a young age. Very few dogs trialed at higher levels show up at the big trials at 2, or even 3 years. Many of those who show up young will not be seen much of later. Why would a show dog need to compete at WUSV level if the focus is on showing? Does a top gymnast also have to be a top football player? Does a great ice hockey player also have to be a great figure skater? You should learn to appreciate what strengths lie in each dog. They do not all need to be top in everything. Versatility is what makes this breed great. Has something for everyone. Never mind that show line dogs do compete at National and World level.

Great response, D.H. (man, wish I said that). I'm definately bookmarking it!

"Why would a show dog need to compete at WUSV level if the focus is on showing? You should learn to appreciate what strengths lie in each dog. They do not all need to be top in everything. Versatility is what makes this breed great. Has something for everyone. Never mind that show line dogs do compete at National and World level." Well, at least you are honest and I think you just said it all. The biggest problem with the gsd right now is the focus on showing. In my opinion this should always be second to correct temperament/drives/workability. Your analgies after that are not as strong. What is the german shepherd without correct temperament...a pretty show dog. Showing is not a strength in my opinion. Correct structure is necessary (but it is also subjective). It is not about being top at everything but being able to DO everything. Sadly fewer and fewer gsd's are able to do that anyomre.

Chey, where have I stated that weak temperaments are acceptable in the above? Does a hockey player have a better or worse temperament than a figure scater just by what sport they participate in? The show dogs are more visible. There are more of them. It is competitive, but at a different level. The wrong judge, out of coat, in heat, not a good day,... excuses are acceptable, kind of... it will be better next time. SchH competitors are a lot more, ummm lets call it... "aware" of possible embarrassment than show people are. They "weed out" what will not make the cut much quicker, so that there will be no embarrassment because of the dog (though often times, it was not the dog). So the weakness is not as visible, but it is there.

Where did I say that weak temperaments are acceptable? I just don't get this hole mentality. Generally speaking german showline dogs ARE weaker in temperament. That doesn't necessarily have to be a negative. It all depends on what part of the dog is weaker. The problem with many showlines is the complete dog is weaker. Not just thier prey drive. On the opposite end of the scale, some working lines are so high in prey it also makes them a weaker 'working'dog. They are also extreme but in a different way. It is flashy on the feild. It is not just prey drive that is a problem in the german showline. We have lost fight drive, pack drive, an overall balance in drive, lost great nerve strength, and have lost 'some' working ability/agility due to size/bone. GENERALLY speaking the working line dog has better nerves, fight drive, pack drive, and yes, often even biddability or 'team work'. There is nothing like working a dog with great drives that also is biddable or wants to work as a team. Everything comes together!!! I have worked some showlines with really good drives but also very stubborn and no biddability or team work. Useless as a working dog (in my opinion). I have also worked a few working line dogs like this. I also think one of the biggest problems in the showline is that most breeders of this dog do not work /train/trial thier dogs personally. Many (if not most) are imprinted by owner/breeder and then sent off to a professional to train/title. No matter how much the trainer tells you, how much you see, how much you 'know' you will not get the same perspective/information on the dog if YOU trained/trialed them yourself. I think there is likley quite a bit of difference in the working line dog as well when it comes to the variations of drives/workability etc. Each person/trainer/owner will choose and likely breed a dog that suits thier style of training/and matches up to who they "are". Even with these variations though...you have more consistency in the 'working' dog. I personally don't really care what line a dog is as a 'working dog' If they can do the work I need and work with in my type of dog /training....I would consider them a 'good dog'. But if I am looking for consistency in producing this same kind of dog...I generally look/breed the working line. There is more consistency. I hope that changes! I hope the showline does get better and not worse, but this won't happen if breeders of them (as these breeders also generally also produce WAY more puppies than the working line) don't examine things closley.

sweetpea, I have a "showline" shepherd that didn't have the drive for Schutzhund, but thank god I kept him because he saved me from a man coming into my backyard while I was sunbathing. There was no way that man was getting near me. The dog was in the house when the man came quietly thru the gate (I did not hear him) and my dog came out the dog door like a shot, without barking..the noise from him rocketing out that door is what clued me in on the intruder...he took the guy down by the arm then stood on top of him growling while I called the police..the police man offered to buy the dog from me as he was impressed that he did this and had only been on the sleeve once when he was younger. So if your "showline" dogs won't protect you, it sounds like a personal problem..maybe they don't want to.

I really don't need to explain where I get my information from Betty. It's common sense, really. People buy dogs for a cheap price in germany because they don't have the kind of drives thats desirable in schutzhund. They soon sell them for a much higher price and uses theses Personal protection titles like if they really mean anything. A good Dog would protect their owners... with little or no training. I hear stories about how dogs saving their owners from danger and have NO training under their belts and actually been in shelters! If somebody really want security protection then buying a gun and having shooting practice is the way to go. At least if you shoot somebody... They go down almost instantly, depending of where you shoot the person at. Brian, It doesn't matter if the dog is tough as nails.. If you have a smart robber... who is using a gun silencer and holding a gun can easily shoot your dog dead without you even knowing it (Unless if you know what every gun silencer sounds like). I think you should watch Court/Crime stories... One partciular story that i really had an interest of is this shelter dog who was shot 3 times by 3 gang members who thought that the owners was keeping drugs inside of the house... the poor dog was trying to protect their owners, even after being shot and wasn't able to save it's owners lives as they were both (they were a couple) shot in the head close range. The dog manage to live for short time but died at the emenrgency vet office from lack of blood. Yeti, what a great story! hopefully people can learn from it and not having to buy that 10,000 dollar dog whos suppose to be trained to protect you.

Chey, do think back more than 30 years ago when the GSD did NOT have the extreme drives that the working lines have today. How did they train and work and maintain the dogs back then? Many "modern" trainers I meet cannot do much with a dog unless it is the push button type, meaning point the ball or the tug or the sleeve and go, or else they are lost. Both new and old training techniques get rejected. Dogs have to fit the one method or else they are not good. And on top of that the show line dogs have a deadline to meet - to have it all by the time they hit their second birthday. Especially the males. When you talk to some old timers, some of the great dogs way back when were very stubborn, independent, not so easy. Why do you think those "nifty" gadgets like prongs and e-collars were invented in the first place. Today, some dogs get top points but they run like machines. The people react, they want to breed to a dog, not a machine that has been made to work, those dogs get few breedings despite their success. What you describe as the working lines to be better at, I have seen present in both working and show lines. And I have seen both lacking in working and show lines. It is very individual to each dog. And how well a dog works also depends on the perons working that dog. What you describe that you want to see in a dog is very relevant but it describes only that fits well to your own personal needs and training style, everything else does not make the cut, for you. Glass half empty. The same dog that does not work for you or with you may be the perfect dog for the next person. Glass half full.

Brit, sounds like metallic popcorn popping, nothing like what you see in the movies or the telly.... A gun can always be used against you, or may hit the wrong person, providing you hit anything at all at that moment, or get to it on time. Not something most people happen to have handy during a home invasion. So first all german dogs are overpriced according to you, now they are dirt cheap and of course none of them have any drives. Which is it then? And who are those "people"???? Stop watching too much court TV and get that title on your girl, girl.