Breeders view on this Breeding - Page 1

Pedigree Database

Al Bravo

by Al Bravo on 26 October 2020 - 11:10

Hello PDB. Any input on this possible planned breeding would really be helpful. Positive and negative. Both dogs are almost ready for their BH. Just working on distractions. Thanks

by GSCat on 26 October 2020 - 22:10

Any pedigree that mentions the hallowed ground of  Lambeau FielLOL

OK, seriously, from a breed drives/temperament/conformation, etc. perspective, what are you trying to accomplish?  Are you trying to concentrate particular genetics?  What are the intended/probable uses for the puppies?

There are (at least) three generations of bitches without HD, etc. indicators behind the stud, plus the stud.  Have any of the bitches been tested and it's just not in PDB?  Are they on OFA website?  Do the breeder(s) have the info they could provide?   Have any of the siblings or progeny of these bitches been tested?  Favorable results?  Has the stud had his hips, etc, checked?  Has the bitch had her hips, etc. checked?

Not sure how the IC works, but if Gero and Grim are siblings, is this counted as part of the rating?  If not, then IMHO, the IC would be higher.


by alexnds05 on 01 November 2020 - 20:11

Hello friend,

It's hard to comment on a future litter without knowing the dogs involved and how they work and how structurally sound they are. I can tell you that when looking at a pedigree, you are mainly looking at the line breeding involved. Line breeding accentuates certain characteristics.
The first thing to understand is what all the numbers mean, so I will go over it:
3-3 means a common ancestor on male (the left number) and female (the right number) side. So this means they share a common grand parent.
That means, a 3-3 breeding is a breeding of first cousins, once removed.
4-4 is a common great-grandparent, or second cousins once removed
5-5 is a common great-great grandparent, or 3rd cousins once removed.
2-3 is the sire's father, is the dam's grandfather. That is half uncle to niece mating
3-2 is the reverse. The sire's grandfather, is the damn's father. This is an aunt to half nephew breeding

Say for example you have something that reads like this: 4-5,5 This means that the male's great-grandfather, is the female's great-great grandfather, but he appears twice, on male and female side of her pedigree, rather than once. In other words, it's not 4-5, but rather, 4-5,5. So when the same great-great grandfather is twice, his influence is more like a 4 than like a 5,essentially making this a 4-4 breeding that great-great grandfather. As the number of generations goes further and further back in time, the influence of that ancestor goes down, further and further. Anything in the 7th generation and further back in time is so far back in time, that the genetic influence is basically non-existant past 5 generations. So that's the difference between Wright's equation and Hardiman's equation. In the equation of Sewell Wright (1922) he counts inheritance only if the common ancestor is on both sides of the pedigree, male and female side and he counts back an unlimited number generation back in time. In Hardiman's equation, he counts line breeding on either side equally. Say for example the female has common ancestors (say she is the result of an uncle to niece breeding), but is bred to a male with an "open" or completely outcrossed pedigree. In Wright's equation, this would be considered an outcrossed pedigree. In Hardiman's equation the inbreeding (line breeding is milder inbreeding) the animal is pre-potent, or the ancestor that has been concentrated upon, will pass more homogenous genes forward, and therefore, be more influential in the outcome.  So he does count it.  So in my opnion, the co-efficient of inbreeding as measured by Hardiman is more accurate than the 1922 equation by Sewall Wright. 

I refer you to this article that explains the difference between Hardiman's equation and Wright's equation:

So getting back to your pedigree, one thing immediately jumps out:

3 - 3    SG Bona ze Svobodného dvora ZZO, ZVV3, ZPO1, IPO-V, IPO3, FPR3
3-3    V Chris spod Lazov FCI WORLD CHAMPION 2013, WUSV Universal Sieger, Slovakian Working Champion, IPO3, 2X WUSV

So this is obviously a Chezkoslovakia dog, who has two influential grandfathers.  Each grandfather is emphasized in this breeding.  So this puppy will have a 6.25% coefficient of inbreeding from one grandfather and the same from the other grandfather.  So to put into perspective, a breeding of half brother to half sister would emphasize their common father, (since they have different mothers, and this is truly inbreeding, not line breeding). In this hypothetical half sibing mating, the coefficient of inbreeding is 12.5% which is very high.
in a mating of grandson to grand-daugther of a great champion, you have a 6.25% inbreeding coefficient. So a half uncle to niece mating is by comparison 9.40% or  nearly 10%. This is nearly the same as half siblings, but not quite. Anything below 10% is still okay, but anything above 10% coefficient of inbreeding is too high.  In your situation, it's 6.25% not once, but twice, but you can't add the two numbers together. They are that number per each grand-father.

So to summarize, the puppies are first cousins not once, but twice. They share not only one grandfather, twice, but another one as well.  So it's each grandfather's blood you're pushing in this breeding, the 2 dogs named above.  They are more than first cousins, but less than half siblings, if that makes sense. This is not too close, but I would not sell these pups to pet quality homes. This is a true sport breeding, with an emphasis on strong champion level dogs.  Good luck and I hope I answered your question.


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