Linebreeding Question? - Page 1

Anyone has any ideas or experience with a line breeding as follows 2,3 Ursus and 3,3 Max Mercanti. Assuming this breeding took place, what kind of results are expected?

It is a total falacy to assume that just because something is linebred 2-3, 3-3, that it will have anything in common with any other dog with the same kind of linebreeding. The determining factor is combining dogs that have those qualities desired in the dog you linebreed on. Not every Ursus son is alike and neither are they going to produce the same. If I wanted to do a linebreeding on a dog that had qualities I wanted, I would select breeding partners progeny that displayed those traits. That would be doing a linebreeding not just in genotype, but also in phenotype. Your chances of getting what you want are much greater in that case. Ruth

Thanks, but I am not assuming that I would recreate an Ursus. My question was asked to find out what experience anyone has had on such linebreeding. It doesn't necesarily have to be on Ursus or Max. Once again, thanks.

What gsdoglady says is correct. It is what the particular breeding animals carry genetically which is not always related to their appearance (genotype versus phenotype). One's best bet is too linebreed two animals which are similar in type or have produced the desired type of the animal being linebred on. This is where usually only the very most experienced breeders with a proven track record for actually knowing what a great speciman is, standing, moving and mentally. There are exceptions, however. Sometimes, one gets a lucky break. Sometimes an outcross (no line breeding in the first five generations)can yield a prepotent animal which produces the desired type, but this is rare. If one breeds two mediocre animals, for example each one is roachbacked with a short steep croup and too much length(very common), it is unlikely that they will get any offspring resembling a top ancestor they have been linebred on (meaning it's unlikely to get a top dog that looks like Ursus even if they have him more than once in the forth generation--one typically sees 4-4, or 4-5 type linebreeding, but rarely 3-4 type in the top German pedigrees. What the result of linebreeding these two mediocre animals is to get more mediocre animals dominant for the por traits not carried by the "common ancestor" being bred on. Thus one has defeated the opurpose of the intended linebreeding in the first place and taken their stock farther away if not permannently from the gens they want.

The biggest problem with a line-breeding discussion is that the majority of GSD enthusiasts will always 'over-simplify' the subject. gsdoglady is FUNDAMENTALLY CORRECT. Most want to talk about line-breeding to this SUPER male, or that SUPER male, and indeed several SUPER males, because they SIMPLY want to believe that they will or have produced something SUPER, or have something SUPER to offer, either as a puppy or as a STUD dog. Line breeding is significantly relevant when one or both parents have phenotype to the SUPER dog (line-breeding) referred to. Close line-breeding is also most important, especially 2-3, and 3-2, 3-3. Anything further away from that is largely irrelevant. I would also point out that one shoud NOT ignore the others in the pedigree of the parents. They have contributed to the conformation etc of the parents, especially those 'close up' - first three generation. For example there are other males that produce BIG HEADS, beside URSUS, and those that produce excellent CROUPS besides WALLACE, and those that produce excellent colour, besides GHANDI. So make sure you study the parents VERY cartefully, consider the line-breeding element IF it is relevant, and ALL males and FEMALES in the first three generations, and occassionally the forth and fifth generation. But NEVER forget - the parents, what they ACTUALLY are, will be the SUBSTANTIAL determining factor IN WHAT THEY PRODUCE.

I thank everyone so very much.

gsdoglady WELL SAID !!!!!!!!!!!

I had a litter 2-3 Ursus last year. It was a super breeding. The temperament was outstanding. The color good to excellent. Four of the six pups have placed first place in various regional conformation shows around the country. Hips were 2 very, very good, 2 good and one fair the other is unkown at this time. One long hair. Contact me directly if you wish to discuss further.

I can only agree with Solo's logic on this one and Thanks Jennifer with that update.

Linebreeding at least removes some of the uncertainty how the litter will turn out.