CH Jolly Arno of Edgetown was not a white shepherd!!!!!! - Page 1

And there are two pedigrees of Jolly Arno.  In my old line of GSDs, he was multiple times in it.  I also had the opportunity of speaking with the really old timers and never did they mention him being white.  There are pictures of him in many places and he is Not white.  These old times looked at one of the extended pedigrees that I had put together and told me that there were a lot of dogs there that carried the white factor so not to be surprised if a white did appear in one of my litters.

Admin, please delete that White Shepherd pedigree!!!   There is no White Shepherd, only the GSD.  I am not opposed to white colored GSDs, but they have no right to try to take over the GSD breed.

See in a discussion list not here, people have written that what I have pointed out is happening with other GSD pedigrees being changed to be shown as white shepherds.  Seems they are not satisfied to just place a comment that a dog carried a white factor.  Then what about blues/livers/ EPI/ dwarfs???  Do we then have to have a special name for these GSDs?????


 

Very nice older pedigree with many ROM's in there.

Almance, I need you to look in your PM box now.

On The older dogs in the White Shepherd Section. For now they stay. choose only GSD in your breed prefference and they will disapear.

He might have been breed to or come from white shepherds at some point. White Shepherds and other colored shepherds have been breed together for years. One of the very first dogs in GSD breed pedigree is a white shepherd, yet the dogs after it tend to to be darker colored. In certain countries the White Shepherd is a breed also so that is why the white shepherd is seperated. So regular colors like black and tan will be in a white shepherd's pedigree and that's normal. It's usually called the White Swiss Shepherd when it is a seperate breed though.

Looks to me more like a simple duplicate - with the more recent entry being incorrect.

Certainly seems a common problem, His mother is even more obvious. She too has two entries, one as a GSD, one as a White Shepherd but both with the same AKC registration number.

OTOH, is there some political force at work here trying to seperate off White GSDs as a different breed? If so I guess someone is re-entering all the ancestors of white GSDs as White Shepherds even though they are entirely normal black & tans. This could create a very confused and mixed-up database. If they complete the task, you'll end up with every GSD in the database having two entries, one as a White Shepherd and one as a GSD.

Oh no! I've just checked the database and yes, as I feared, even Beowulf and Horand von Grafrath have been classified as White Shepherds.
Ridiculous!

So every GSD that has Horand as an ancestor should theoretically be classified as a White GSD. But since he was the first GSD (SZ1) , all his descendents should also be classified as GSDs. So the entire database of GSDs should be dupilicated as White Shepherds!

Most Important:
Set your breed prefference to your choice of breed if you need to exclude these dogs from search should they confuse or bother you.

1. The Entry is correct for the moment and has descendants in the White Shepherd. (Not a duplicate) but a double for another breed.
For now these will remain in the case of GSD/White shepherd, ( and some other breeds) because it is hard for newcomers to connect ancestors of different breeds to descendants.
If removed, newer doubles without numbers or images will be created. It is all about people being able to see extended pedigrees of dogs.

2. They are not adding every dog, just ones that are the ancestors of their dogs. The further back a dog is and the more famous and used the more likely down the line it has a white descendant.

3. The white shepherd has to some degree been a different breed for a long time. Today in fact it is a recognized seperate breed.
Because the current standard eliminates them from showing in GSD they split to enjoy shows with other entities/registries, yet they can still be registed as German Shepherd Dog in some registries and are forced to do so in others. As a reflection of that reality owners can and do enter their dogs as white shepherd, GSD or both should they want.

SZ 1 had a white shepherd maternal grandfather and we would get into a chicken vs egg argument.

4. Intructions and help is available for those wanting to connect their dogs to certain ancestors of another breed keeping the breed info correct. Every case is unique depending on the breeds and ancestors and if those are already in the database or not. Should you require help, send a PM with your case to me.

GSD Lineage (admin)

"2. They are not adding every dog, just ones that are the ancestors of their dogs. The further back a dog is and the more famous and used the more likely down the line it has a white descendant."

As said: if they complete the task, then all ancestors up to SV1 will have a second entry as a White.
Once you classify SV1 as a white shepherd, then logically, all SV1's progeny will be white Shepherds, So the entire database of GSDs will be reclassified as Whites (or as is being done - having second entries created).

If some Kennel clubs have recognised White Shepherds as a seperate breed, then those dogs registered with them should be recorded as Whites, but the parents should only be included in their original breed. recording one dog as two seperate breeds in ludicrous.

I was amazed when I saw Horand v Grafrath has an entry as a white shepherd. There was no such recognised breed when he existed, so it is a lie to record hoim in a database as a "White Shepherd". And, clearly, he wasn't white!

I guess I should back off now. It's your database and so you can do what you like with it. None of my business!

Go For it, start fixing them all. Have Fun  lol

Eventually they are probably going to get merged. In the meantime, they are there and can be marked by placing GSD after the name.
It is not my database and I'm sure the owner and everyone here including me would love to hear your solution. We are always listening to others in order to make this place better.

Thank you for your kind tolerance. In some areas of the internet I would have been roasted and chucked off! (hence my comments about backing off)

In my opinion, it is illogical to list a dog under a breed that did not exist when the dog was born, and illogical to list a dog as being two different breeds.

My solution (and I've read hints that the ability to do this within the database already exists) is to allow a dog to be listed with parents of different breeds or where no recognised breed exists, one parent could be "misc dog" or "unknown breed".

Simple rules can be established. If a dog is registered with a kennel club as a GSD, it should be listed purely as that. If a dog is KC registered as a White Shepherd, then list it as that - (and one or both of it's parents may be listed as GSDs). If a dog is not registered with a KC, then it can be listed as either of its parent's breeds (but not both).

To that end I would not describe any ancestors of Horand von Grafrath as GSDs, since the breed did not exist when they were born. It is also arguable whether to describe Horand as a GSD or not. Certainly all his progeny should be.

I originally joined the forum to make some comments about duplicate entries in the database - exactly like the OP's. In my case I stumbled aross a dog with three duplicate entries and was astounded to find that a full proper GSD was described as a White Shepherd, when clearly it wasn't.

If the current method of handling White Shepherd entries in the database was repeated with, say, Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and Saarloos, then all the older GSDs should get further repeat entries as each of those breeds too (since they too are descendants of Horand von Grafrath).